1 1 COUNTY OF HUDSON STATE OF NEW JERSEY 2 ---------------------------------------x 3 In Re: APPLE VIEW 7009-7101 RIVER ROAD 4 NORTH BERGEN, NEW JERSEY 07047 CASE NO. 4 5 Applicant. 6 ---------------------------------------x 7 July 29,2010 8 7:10 p.m. 9 B E F O R E: 10 THE NORTH BERGEN PLANNING BOARD 11 12 PRESENT: 13 HARRY D. MAYO, III, Chairman ROBERT P. BASELICE, Member 14 RICHARD LOCRICCHIO, Member STEVEN SOMICK, Member 15 SEBASTIAN ARNONE, Member PATRICIA BARTOLI, Member 16 REHAB AWADALLAH, Alternate Member MANUEL FERNANDEZ, Alternate Member 17 18 GITTLEMAN, MUHLSTOCK & CHEWCASKIE, ESQS. 19 Attorneys for the Planning Board BY: Steven Muhlstock, Esq. 20 Geraldine Baker, Board Clerk 21 Jill Hartmann, Board Planner James Fordham, Board Engineer 22 23 24 Reported by: CELESTE A. GALBO, CCR, RPR, RMR 25 Celeste A. Galbo, CSR, RMR 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: 2 3 ALAMPI & DeMARRAIS Attorneys for the Applicant 4 1 University Plaza Hackensack, New Jersey 07601 5 BY: Carmine R. Alampi, Esq. 6 7 BEATTIE & PADAVANO, LLC 8 Attorneys for Objectors Galaxy 50 Chestnut Ridge Road 9 Montvale, New Jersey BY: JOHN J. LAMB, ESQ. 10 11 MARIA GESUALDI, ESQ. 12 Attorney for Objector Township of Guttenberg 13 6806 Bergenline Avenue Guttenberg, New Jersey 07093 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 3 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Meeting is called to 2 order. Pursuant to the Open Public Meetings Act 3 please be advised that notice of this special 4 meeting was faxed to the "Journal Dispatch" and 5 "Bergen Record" on July 7th, 2010 advising that 6 the North Bergen Planning Board would hold a 7 meeting on July 29th, 2010 at 7 p.m. in the 8 municipal building located at 4233 Kennedy 9 Boulevard, North Bergen, New Jersey, 07047. 10 Board members, attorneys and applicants were 11 mailed notices on that date and a copy of this 12 notice was posted on the bulletin board in the 13 lobby of the municipal building for public 14 inspection. 15 Gerry, please call the roll. 16 (Whereupon roll call is taken and 17 Vice Chairman George Ahto is absent.) 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, Case No. 4-10, 19 7009 to 7101 River Road. 20 MR. ALAMPI: Good evening everybody. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Good evening. 22 MR. ALAMPI: May name is Carmine 23 Alampi, this is a continuation of the hearing on 24 Apple View, LLC. 25 MR. MUHLSTOCK: Mr. Alampi, just let Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 4 1 me briefly stop you for a second. I just want 2 the record to reflect that Mr. Baselice and 3 Somick read the transcript of June 24, 2010 and 4 they've executed certifications of having done so 5 so that they can participate in these proceeding. 6 I've handed those certifications over to our 7 board secretary. 8 Secondly, I should note for the 9 record that we did receive today correspondence 10 from Mr. Lamb dated July 28, 2010 wherein he 11 again asserts that our firm should recuse 12 ourselves. We disagree and I'm recommending to 13 the board that we continue as attorneys for the 14 board. He's also raised or re-raised various 15 issues that he considers to be jurisdictional, 16 all of which were dealt with at the first 17 hearing, and my advice to the board, my 18 recommendation to the board is that we continue 19 with the hearing and allow Mr. Lamb to put on his 20 case when he gets to it, that none of these 21 issues, in our opinion at least and in the 22 planner's opinion, are jurisdictional. So I 23 would suggest that we on those bases continue 24 with the hearing. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 5 1 you, Mr. Muhlstock. 2 Does any member of the board wish to 3 make a motion with regard to having our attorney 4 recuse himself? 5 (No response.) 6 THE CHAIRMAN: All right, seeing no 7 one... 8 MR. SHAW: Mr. Chairman, for a 9 clarification, Mr. Lamb wanted the whole board to 10 recuse itself? 11 MR. MUHLSTOCK: No, just wanted me 12 to recuse our firm as attorney for the board. 13 MR. SHAW: Okay, I didn't understand 14 it. Now I understand it. Thank you. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no such move 16 for a motion, I'm going to have the hearing 17 continue. Mr. Alampi. 18 MR. ALAMPI: Thank you, chairman. 19 The application continues. We had 20 concluded the testimony of cross-examination, 21 public comment on the architect, however, upon 22 review of the discussion and comments of the 23 public and the board, a change was made to the 24 plans and they have been updated, the revisions 25 were done in early July. When I call the witness Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 6 1 he will indicate the exact date of revision and 2 each of the revisions were presented in the 3 architectural and engineering plans. They were 4 resubmitted to the board more than ten days 5 before this evening. Copies of course were 6 delivered to your professionals and to Mr. Lamb 7 and other attorneys who have notified me in the 8 past that they may or may not participate but I 9 still have circulated the plans to them directly. 10 With that I'm going to call Mr. 11 Carballo for just a few minutes to outline the 12 change of the plan and of course he can be 13 questioned and I plan to go to Mr. Bertin, the 14 site engineer. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: I have one quick 16 question for Mr. Carballo. You addressed the 17 letter to Mr. Anthony Vanieri, Chairman of the 18 North Bergen Board of Adjustment. 19 THE WITNESS: I apologize. 20 MR. ALAMPI: And you're not Mr. 21 Vanieri. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: My name does end in a 23 vowel but that's about the closest -- 24 MR. ALAMPI: Mr. Mayo, I do want you 25 to know that I put a big red circle and X on that Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 7 Carballo - Direct 1 and called Mr. Carballo and said I know that you 2 might have at an earlier time addressed the 3 letter to the zoning board. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: I told him I was 5 going to raise this. 6 MR. ALAMPI: I knew you would. 7 MR. CARBALLO: As soon as I saw you 8 walk in, I realized what I did, so I apologize. 9 JILL HARTMANN, having been duly sworn by the 10 Notary Public, was examined and testified as 11 follows: 12 JAMES FORDHAM, having been duly sworn by the 13 Notary Public, was examined and testified as 14 follows: 15 JOSE CARBALLO, having been duly sworn by the 16 Notary Public, was examined and testified as 17 follows: 18 DIRECT EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. ALAMPI: 20 Q. Mr. Carballo, as a result of the 21 meeting last in June did I discuss with you the 22 details of the plan and ask you to make certain 23 adjustments on behalf of the applicant Apple 24 View, LLC? 25 A. Yes, we did discuss that and we did Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 8 Carballo - Direct 1 make the changes on the plans. 2 Q. Could you give us the date of -- 3 revision date of your plans and then briefly 4 describe for us the changes that were made? 5 A. The date is July 1, 2010 on all the 6 drawings. 7 Basically there were six items -- 8 Q. Wait a minute, we're going to mark 9 them. I forget where we left off, I was looking 10 for my legal pad. 11 MR. MUHLSTOCK: I have it. I'm 12 looking at the transcript of the June 24th 13 proceeding and we only marked Exhibit 1, A-1 as 14 the architectural plans, so we're up to A-2. 15 MR. ALAMPI: Okay, we'll mark as 16 A-2, I'll just put it in the corner and just tell 17 us the revision date. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. You're 19 speaking of the drawings A-0, A-1, A-2 and A-3; 20 is that correct? 21 THE WITNESS: That is correct, and 22 the date is 7/1/10, the revision date. 23 MR. ALAMPI: Thank you. 24 (Applicant's Exhibit 2, drawings A-0, 25 A-1, A-2 and A-3 with the revision date Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 9 Carballo - Direct 1 7/1/10, was received in evidence.) 2 Q. Now, tell us briefly what revisions 3 were made to the plan. Were there any changes to 4 the exterior of the building, to the footprint of 5 the building, to the size, square footage or 6 massing of the building in any way? 7 A. No changes to those areas 8 whatsoever -- 9 Q. And so these changes are exclusively 10 to the interior floor plan? 11 A. That is correct. 12 Q. And tell us what you did. 13 A. Certainly. First area we changed, 14 if you recall last time the first submission that 15 we had parking spaces were 8-1/2 wide by 18. 16 Obviously that is waiver from the Residential 17 Site Improvement Standards so we decided that we 18 were going to make these parking spaces nine foot 19 wide by 18. We had 118 parking spaces, we ended 20 up with 116 parking spaces. That caused us to 21 lose one unit so that this project is actually a 22 59-unit project as opposed to a 60-unit project. 23 What we did is if you look at the 24 first floor plan which is on A-1, you're going to 25 notice that corner, the northwestern corner we're Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 10 Carballo - Direct 1 actually taking the unit out of the first floor 2 and we're converting that space into an exercise 3 spa area so that we now have 59 units and that is 4 a two bedroom unit that was removed. Once we did 5 the calculations for the remainder 59 units we 6 realized the 116 parking spaces met the RSIS 7 standards for parking. 8 Q. Now, with regard to the other floors 9 of the building with the exception of the 10 community rooms and storage area, they remain 11 exactly the same? 12 A. There was one change that was done 13 to the upper level, the second level of the 14 duplex units, but while we are still on this 15 drawing, you're going to see that the back of the 16 building, the rear portion of the building where 17 we had all those community rooms now we have 18 mostly storage area for the tenants, and we 19 reduced the number of community rooms to two 20 smaller community rooms per floor. So we now 21 have six community rooms, we actually have 24 22 storage areas per floor for the building. So we 23 have 72 storage areas. 24 So those were the changes that were 25 made to parking area and then the first and Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 11 Carballo - Direct 1 second floor residential level which are the 2 same. 3 Q. Now, on the ground level when you 4 reorganized the parking spaces -- 5 MR. BASELICE: How big are the 6 storage areas? 7 THE WITNESS: They're like five by 8 six. 9 Q. On the ground level when you 10 reorganized the parking spaces, the dimensions 11 are now nine by 18; is that correct? 12 A. There's 116 parking spaces, 114 are 13 nine by 18, there's two parking spaces that are 14 shown right here outside of the court area that 15 are 8 1/2 by 18, we're calling those compact 16 spaces. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: No, 8-1/2 by six? 18 THE WITNESS: No, it's 8-1/2 by 18 19 feet. 20 Q. And, Jose, those two spaces meet the 21 zoning ordinance but are slightly more narrow 22 than the RSIS standard? 23 A. That is correct, six inches short 24 but they do meet the zoning ordinance of the 25 Township of North Bergen. Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 12 Carballo - Direct 1 Q. We reorganized the parking spaces. 2 Were there any changes to any of rooms, 3 mechanical rooms, lobby area on the ground floor 4 as to its configuration, its size or its 5 location? 6 A. Not really. If we changed them, it 7 might have been maybe a foot here or there just 8 to be able to accommodate the spaces, but no, 9 there were no significant changes to the floor 10 plan. 11 Q. Are there any other changes to the 12 interior floor plan on any level? 13 A. Yes, there is. There is another 14 change on the upper units, the penthouse units. 15 So if we refer to A-2 of 4 one of the questions 16 that he came up last time was there was a den 17 that appeared to be a sufficient size for 18 somebody to convert that den to a bedroom. What 19 we did, if you recall the last plan, is we had 20 the stair on this side of that room. What we did 21 is moved that stair to the other side of the room 22 and now that room is seven foot wide. The other 23 thing that we did is if you look at the plan is 24 we removed all the walls that connect that room 25 to the hallway or the living room. And obviously Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 13 Carballo - Direct 1 we left the wall that adjoining the other master 2 bedroom but that area now is completely open and 3 it's seven foot wide. 4 Q. So the intent was to make that area 5 not to be enclosed, to be smaller and to enlarge 6 in fact the living area, the living room/dining 7 area? 8 A. That is correct. It was intended to 9 be sort of like an office type situation and I 10 think this now defines it even further. 11 Q. So we know that the unit occupant 12 will utilize that space for its true purpose, it 13 could not readily be a hidden bedroom, correct? 14 A. It is too small for that, that is 15 correct. 16 Q. Any other changes to the plan? 17 A. And I guess the last change that we 18 made, and you'll see that more on the engineering 19 drawings, is we actually put grass and 20 landscaping on the roof of the building. But 21 you'll see that on Mr. Bertin's drawings later 22 on. 23 Q. And that's the ordinance requiring a 24 50 percent green for the roof plan, correct? 25 A. That is correct. Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 14 Carballo - Direct 1 Q. And you'll defer to Calisto Bertin's 2 testimony? 3 A. I certainly will do that. 4 MR. ALAMPI: I have no further 5 questions for this witness. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Any member of 7 the board have any questions? 8 (No response.) 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Lamb, do you want 10 to do a cross? 11 MR. LAMB: Yes, just very quickly. 12 CROSS EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. LAMB: 14 Q. Good evening. 15 A. Good evening. 16 Q. You said that there were minor 17 changes to the floor plan, the floor plan of the 18 units? 19 A. Just that one unit, the one that I 20 just discussed. 21 Q. Just the penthouse units? 22 A. Just the penthouse. 23 Q. And page drawing A-0 of 4 indicates 24 actual square foot size. None of the square 25 footage is changed? Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 15 Carballo - Direct 1 A. None of the square footage is 2 changed. 3 Q. So basically you removed the wall 4 just on the penthouse unit on the top floor? 5 A. We actually took the stair on this 6 side of the wall and put it on that side of the 7 wall to make that room smaller. But the square 8 footage, the area is based -- it's the same. It 9 really didn't change. 10 MR. LAMB: Nothing further, Mr. 11 Chairman. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. All 13 right. Mr. Alampi, you're next witness. 14 Just so the public knows, we will 15 come back to this witness for you to comment or 16 ask any questions. 17 MR. ALAMPI: You are throwing me 18 off, Mr. Chairman. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. Mr. 20 Carballo can obviously hang around. 21 MR. ALAMPI: Thank you. Okay. Our 22 next witness is Mr. Calisto Bertin. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: And one other thing, 24 just so everyone knows, we are going to end 25 around 9:00 this evening as we usually do. Just Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 16 Bertin - Voir Dire 1 so no one is surprised when I call the meeting at 2 nine. 3 MR. ALAMPI: Do I look surprised? 4 THE CHAIRMAN: No, but some of the 5 members of the public might. 6 MR. ALAMPI: Thank you, chairman. I 7 appreciate the special meeting reserved like 8 this, it's much more efficient for all the 9 parties and we appreciate all your efforts. 10 With that, our next witness is our 11 site engineer. 12 MR. ALAMPI: Who also is our traffic 13 consultant, Calisto Bertin, the principal of 14 Bertin Engineering in Glen Rock. And with that, 15 Mr. Bertin, you need to be sworn in. 16 CALISTO BERTIN, having been duly sworn by the 17 Notary Public, was examined and testified as 18 follows: 19 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. ALAMPI: 21 Q. Mr. Bertin, are you a licensed 22 engineer of the State of New Jersey? 23 A. Yes, I am. 24 Q. Could you give us the benefit of 25 your educational background and just in a summary Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 17 Bertin - Voir Dire 1 fashion indicate your experience level, your 2 curriculum vitae and how many opportunities 3 you've had to testify before various state 4 agencies, municipal boards and even this board? 5 MR. LAMB: Mr. Chairman, I have no 6 objection to Mr. Bertin. I think he's a licensed 7 engineer in the State of New Jersey. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, I would still 9 like the public to hear. 10 MR. ALAMPI: And traffic too, also 11 we'll be utilizing his services as traffic 12 engineering and his traffic impact study report. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you continue. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, thank you. I 15 have a degree in civil engineering from Villa 16 Nova University, a Master's Degree in engineering 17 from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. I was 18 licensed as an engineer in New York in 1984, '82, 19 yeah, around '82, and licensed in New Jersey the 20 next year. I'm also licensed in Connecticut, 21 Massachusetts, Rhode Island and New Hampshire. 22 In 1986 I started Bertin Engineering. We're 23 about a little over 30 people at this point. Our 24 office is in 66 Glen Avenue in Glen Rock. I also 25 have another office in South Bridge, Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 18 Bertin - Direct 1 Massachusetts. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Bertin has 3 appeared before this board a number of times and 4 we will accept him as an expert. 5 MR. ALAMPI: Thank you. 6 DIRECT EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. ALAMPI: 8 Q. Calisto, you're the site engineer? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. In charge of civil engineering, 11 geotechnical analysis, surveying and all 12 engineering disciplines within your firm 13 spearheading the engineering development of this 14 site? 15 A. Yes, I oversaw the activities. 16 Q. You have been involved with the 17 development of this site for more than four years 18 now, correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. You participated in the analyses and 21 plans of earlier generated plans that are not now 22 before this board, is that also correct? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. And you've had an opportunity to 25 review in great detail the title history of the Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 19 Bertin - Direct 1 property, title searches to continue to search 2 the vaults and records of Hudson County directly 3 yourself and with your subordinates to analyze 4 the issues of locations of easements and 5 restrictions and things of that nature? 6 A. Yes, that's true. 7 Q. You also had to harness up some of 8 your men and hoist them to the top of the 9 Palisades so they could measure the rim of the 10 Palisades and accurately depict the property line 11 at the rim of the Palisades? 12 A. Yes, but they did that themselves, I 13 don't think I could hoist them. 14 Q. And you also evaluated certain 15 elements of the topography of the property, the 16 subsurface condition and the steep slope area? 17 A. Yes. Yes, I've personally been on 18 this site many times. 19 Q. And in doing that you have then 20 generated a series of engineering plans and 21 information, reports and studies that were 22 submitted to the board, is that also correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Could you just outline for us -- 25 MR. ALAMPI: We're going to mark as Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 20 Bertin - Direct 1 A-3, Chairman, collectively, the engineering site 2 plan. We didn't mark the original submission but 3 we will mark as A-3 the most revised submission, 4 obviously it incorporates the earlier plan. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Fine. 6 MR. MUHLSTOCK: Just for the record 7 what's the last -- 8 MR. ALAMPI: Can you tell me how 9 many sheets these are? 10 MS. HARTMANN: July 6th? 11 THE WITNESS: There are 17 drawings 12 in the set. 13 Q. The 17 drawings include the boundary 14 survey, site plan and other information, title 15 sheet and so on and so forth, correct? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. In conjunction with this, could you 18 just tell us the date of the plans and the most 19 recent revision date and we'll mark them 20 collectively as we said A-3? 21 MR. LAMB: I only have a set of 22 plans with 14 pages. 23 THE WITNESS: Maybe I miscounted 24 that. 25 MR. LAMB: Either they were Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 21 Bertin - Direct 1 miscounted or we just want to identify which 2 pages he has that I don't have. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: There are only 14 4 listed in the cover letter. 5 THE WITNESS: Oh, you know -- 6 MR. ALAMPI: I'm going to go with 7 Mr. Lamb. Mr. Bertin does have a little 8 difficulty with adding, but go ahead. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, I need calculus. 10 No, three of the sheets are the architect's 11 plans. Because when we original submitted the 12 plans, there was one set included the architect 13 plans. So it's 14. 14 Q. There's 14 sheets? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And what is your revision date? 17 A. Well, the plans have an initial date 18 of November 25, 2009 and this current revision 19 date is July 6, 2010. 20 Q. Now, with regard to the revision 21 date of July 6th, 2010, not every sheet was 22 revised only those that had updated information 23 and needed revision, correct? 24 A. Correct. 25 (Applicant's Exhibit 3, plans with a Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 22 Bertin - Direct 1 revision date of July 6, 2010, 14 pages, 2 was received in evidence.) 3 Q. With regard to the submissions you 4 did, you also did other studies and reports that 5 were submitted? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Just tell us what they are and the 8 dates of the reports you prepared. 9 A. There's a traffic impact study that 10 has a date of July 27th, 2009 and was revised to 11 June 10, 2010. 12 MR. LAMB: I just want to note for 13 the record that I did not receive a copy of that 14 from Mr. Alampi who is sending me everything. 15 MR. ALAMPI: That's probably true. 16 MR. MUHLSTOCK: I don't think the 17 board -- 18 MR. ALAMPI: No, you do. Everything 19 was submitted to the board but may not have been 20 -- 21 THE WITNESS: And I submit 22 everything to Gerry baker. We did not submit 18 23 copies. I'll look at the transmittal. I'm sure 24 there were several copies that were submitted. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't see the Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 23 Bertin - Direct 1 traffic report at all. 2 MS. HARTMANN: I have it. Do you 3 want it? 4 (Handed.) 5 MR. ALAMPI: Chairman, I believe 6 that with the June 10th submission the plans they 7 were folded underneath the plans as well as the 8 package. That's my recollection of them along 9 with the possibly the geotechnical report. 10 MR. LAMB: I also don't have a copy 11 of the geotechnical report. But is that the 2007 12 one? 13 MR. ALAMPI: Everything was updated, 14 John. In a moment. Just wait. 15 Chairman, although these were all 16 part of the June package, I believe, and we're 17 going to just put it on the record the traffic 18 impact, the geotechnical and Storm Water 19 Management Plan, we'll give the dates on the 20 record. But apparently since they weren't 21 distributed and by oversight Mr. Lamb didn't 22 receive an individualized copy, we'll probably 23 get into that testimony on another night. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 25 MR. ALAMPI: So there's no need to Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 24 Bertin - Direct 1 have to try to read it on the fly. 2 MR. LAMB: Mr. Chairman, I don't 3 have any objection. We're going to have 4 basically the engineering testimony before the 5 other testimony, so I think we can cover that. 6 MR. ALAMPI: Thank you. 7 Q. Calisto, just so we certify the 8 record, there were two other reports that you 9 worked on? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. There was a storm water management 12 report? 13 A. A storm water drainage analysis, it 14 was dated July 30th, 2009 and revised February 15 8th, 2010. 16 Q. What was the first date, July? 17 A. I'm sorry, July 30th, 2009 and it 18 was revised February 8th, 2010. 19 Q. And lastly, there was a geotechnical 20 report? 21 A. Yes, the geotechnical report was 22 done by Johnson Soils Company. It was originally 23 dated May 14th, 2007 and it was revised to June 24 10, 2010. 25 MR. ALAMPI: Chairman, just note Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 25 Bertin - Direct 1 that these requirements of the Site Plan 2 Ordinance, Site Plan Checklist Ordinance and to 3 have a more comprehensive submission, these items 4 and reports and studies were packaged back in the 5 earlier submission and copies made. However, 6 we're not going into that detail testimony this 7 evening, so the board will have plenty of time 8 and I'll make sure that Mr. Lamb gets a copy so 9 that he can adequately review them. 10 THE WITNESS: And for the record, 11 these were submitted directly to Boswell 12 Engineering and they do have them, the board's 13 engineer. 14 THE CLERK: Mr. Alampi, we probably 15 need extra copies -- 16 MR. ALAMPI: No, no, we are going to 17 submit them. What we have been doing is 18 providing these and having them hand delivered to 19 the consultants and to the attorneys so there 20 wouldn't be an issue of them not being received. 21 But no problem. 22 THE WITNESS: So I'm clear, you want 23 the traffic and the geotech? You really want the 24 drainage report? 25 THE CHAIRMAN: It is part of the Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 26 Bertin - Direct 1 submission. 2 MR. MUHLSTOCK: You'd be surprised. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay, we'll make extra 4 copies. 5 MR. ALAMPI: Yeah, well just do it. 6 We'll submit. Having said that, we'll just go 7 through the engineering site plan, roof plan, 8 et cetera for this evening. 9 Q. Now, Calisto, given your history and 10 familiarity with the site and reports and such, 11 why don't we go to the direct testimony of the 12 site conditions, dimensions, location and the 13 like. Let's start off with the description of 14 the site, its size et cetera. 15 A. Yes, this is a piece of property 16 located along River Road on the west side of 17 River Road. It's 2.31 acres in area. I'll point 18 to a diagram, we'll get into it later but just 19 for the property, it's along the southbound side 20 of River Road. It's 2.3 acres an area. It's 21 comprised of four tax lots. It's not shown here 22 but there are four tax lots which is part of the 23 application is to combine all the lots into one. 24 It's lot 1, 2, 3 and 5.02 and Block 316. We have 25 275 feet of frontage along River Road and the Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 27 Bertin - Direct 1 property is approximately 350 feet deep. 2 To the north of the property is the 3 municipal sewerage treatment plant. On the east 4 again is River Road, county road. The south is 5 the Galaxy condominium complex. To the southwest 6 of the property is Ferry Road and then directly 7 behind the property to the due west and the 8 northwest corner is another multilevel 9 residential building or property for that 10 building. 11 Q. The property is coincidental with 12 the boundary line of Guttenberg and North Bergen 13 North Bergen to the west? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. And south? 16 A. Yes, the south property line and 17 again along the southwest corner of the property 18 represents the municipal boundary between 19 Guttenberg and North Bergen. 20 Q. Two sides of the so-called rectangle 21 are the boundary of North Bergen and Guttenberg, 22 correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And to the north and to the east 25 it's North Bergen, correct? Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 28 Bertin - Direct 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. Now, the property did rise sharply 3 at the foot of the Palisades to the top of the 4 Palisades, correct? 5 A. That is correct. 6 Q. And the improvements are being 7 located in what is the flat surface area that 8 presently exists at the site? 9 A. Yes, and I have an exhibit to show 10 that. 11 Q. We'll get to that. Now, with the 12 property you indicated it's what, 2.31 acres? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. And with the grade, could you just 15 work us through the grades? 16 A. Yes. The grade level along River 17 Road, River Road is around nine and a half. On 18 the property the elevation is 10. When we get to 19 the back of the flat property, I didn't mention 20 this property currently has a couple tennis 21 courts on there, half basketball court. So the 22 front part of the property has been graded. We 23 rise up to -- rise up about five feet to 24 elevation 15. Then we hit the slope. And from 25 I'm going to just point say two-thirds of the way Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 29 Bertin - Direct 1 back of the property is where its elevation 15. 2 From there to the back of the property, the far 3 west end of the property rises up to elevation 4 116. So it rises 100 feet to the back third, a 5 little bit more than a third of the property. 6 Q. From the back parking area such as 7 projected to the rim of the Palisades is 100 foot 8 difference? 9 A. Yes. Really there is a little 10 outcropping of the Palisades. We don't hit the 11 Palisades like other properties north of it where 12 you visually see cliff face. There is a little 13 bit of exposed cliff face here but with Ferry 14 Road and the building on top you don't really see 15 any cliff, any of the exposed cliff just a small 16 piece. 17 Q. Now, Calisto, one piece of 18 housekeeping, Boswell Engineering has had the 19 opportunity to review these plans and submit 20 several comment letters, correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you've responded to those 23 comment letters whenever acceptable, the last one 24 that was only dated two days ago, correct? 25 A. Correct. Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 30 Bertin - Direct 1 Q. With regard to these comment letters 2 there was a comment regarding the sidewalk on the 3 road -- what's the road up above? 4 A. Ferry Road. 5 Q. Ferry Road? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And the right-of-way and the cart 8 way and sidewalk, could you just explain to the 9 board that there's a section of the sidewalk 10 that's cantilevered off the cliff edge? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Show us where it is. 13 A. Ferry Road rises and it's really 14 above grade. The road itself is built on a wall 15 when you get to our property, but the sidewalk is 16 a structural element like a bridge, it hangs 17 over. So the sidewalk is not on the ground. You 18 can if you go off the sidewalk, you can actually 19 get underneath the sidewalk. Our surveyor spent 20 a lot of time because we had to establish the 21 municipal boundary, so we worked with Boswell 22 Engineering's firm and did a lot of research. 23 This sidewalk and the sidewalk is shown to 24 encroach on the property in the area that I'm 25 pointing which is the southwest end of the Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 31 Bertin - Direct 1 property or the southern end of the west property 2 line. That sidewalk is really up in the air and 3 it hangs over the property. 4 Q. However it's constructed, we have no 5 plans of any type to do any work in that area or 6 to disturb that sidewalk even though it overhangs 7 the rim of the property line, correct? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Now, let's go to the variances that 10 are articulated in the plan, if any, and then 11 we'll go back through the rest of your testimony. 12 What variances did you identify in 13 your investigation as shown on your site plan? 14 A. Well, we have two variances. The 15 first variance is for lot area. In this zone 16 which is the P-2 edge cliff zone we're required 17 to have a lot of five acres. As I mentioned, 18 this is 2.31 acres. 19 Q. Is there any available land to the 20 north or to the west or even to the south to 21 abrogate additional two acres or two plus acres 22 of land for this property? 23 A. Absolutely not. No, there is no 24 land available. 25 Q. In any event, with regard to the Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 32 Bertin - Direct 1 variances then, the existing condition is that it 2 is approximately one-half of the required minimum 3 lot size? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. And is there anything that this 6 applicant as the owner of the property can do to 7 reduce the size of the property, to have 8 comprised the size of the property, to have 9 impeded the size of the property? 10 A. No. 11 Q. With regard to any of the variances, 12 did you find any other deviation from any 13 municipal zoning ordinance? 14 A. We have one other variance and that 15 deals with building coverage. The building 16 coverage limitation is 25 percent. This building 17 is 31.6 percent. 18 Q. So the building is 6.6 percent 19 greater in coverage than permitted? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. If you calculate that based on the 22 square footage, how many square feet is that? 23 A. That's 6,639 square feet. 24 Q. The overall coverage, the impervious 25 coverage permitted is what in this zone? Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 33 Bertin - Direct 1 A. We're allowed 65 percent impervious 2 coverage. 3 Q. And what is it on this property? 4 A. 42.7 percent. 5 Q. With regard to the other elements of 6 the required setback, side yard, rear yard, 7 height any other questions, is there any variance 8 that is implicated by these plans? 9 A. No, we laid out the building and 10 designed the building so we would not violate any 11 of the setback variances. We have a 20-foot 12 setback along the north property line. Since the 13 south property line is not parallel to the 14 building we are required to have a 20-foot 15 average setback and we meet that and the setback 16 from River Road is 15 feet from the curb. We are 17 15.7 feet from the curb or 5.7 feet from the 18 property line. 19 Q. And with regard to the height, the 20 ordinance in North Bergen clearly states how you 21 calculate height and what point of references you 22 use, correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And the crown or the center line of 25 River Road is the point of reference to measure Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 34 Bertin - Direct 1 the height? 2 A. Yes, for this zone we use the -- we 3 use a height above the center line of River Road. 4 Q. That's what's required? 5 A. That's what's required for this 6 zone. 7 Q. So the height at the center line is 8 what? 9 A. The elevation of River Road is 9.33. 10 Q. I'm sorry, I used the word height. 11 That's the elevation? 12 A. That's the elevation. 13 Q. And that's your reference point? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What's the height of the building 16 utilizing the property definition? 17 A. Utilizing the building the -- well, 18 we're allowed 75 feet above that which at 19 elevation 84.33 so we're allowed to be at 20 elevation 84. The building is 20 feet lower than 21 that at the 64.33. So the building is 55 feet 22 tall instead of 65 feet tall from River Road. 23 Q. When you say it's 65 feet tall above 24 the center line of River Road, there is also 25 appendages and other structures on the roof in Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 35 Bertin - Direct 1 addition to that? 2 A. No, this includes the top of the 3 penthouse, so that's the highest point. 4 Q. Are there any other structures on 5 the roof such as a bulkhead for the elevator or 6 any of the stairwells or anything? 7 A. Not above the penthouse. 8 Q. So the answer is no? 9 A. The answer is no. 10 Q. Thank you. 11 With regard to -- 12 MR. MUHLSTOCK: Mr. Alampi, before 13 you leave, we're looking at Mr. Bertin's plans, 14 the front sheet in his zoning table. It says 15 minimum front yard, the ordinance is 15 feet from 16 the curb. 17 MR. ALAMPI: Yes. 18 MR. MUHLSTOCK: And he indicates 19 proposed 5.7 -- 20 MR. ALAMPI: No, that's property, 21 not proposed. 22 MR. MUHLSTOCK: Well, I think I just 23 want a clarification. 24 MR. ALAMPI: I'm sorry. 25 MR. MUHLSTOCK: It says proposed 5.7 Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 36 Bertin - Direct 1 feet from right-of-way. 2 MR. ALAMPI: Let him clarify that. 3 MR. MUHLSTOCK: Just clarify that, 4 what do you mean? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, and I should have 6 put both. There is 10 feet from the curb to the 7 right-of-way line. So we really should add the 8 10 feet plus the 5.7 feet to come up with 15.7 9 feet from the curb line to the face of the 10 building. So we meet the 15 foot minimum 11 requirement and I will make sure that's spelled 12 out. But from an engineering standpoint where I 13 have surveyors stake out the building, I want to 14 make sure they do it from the property line not 15 from the street. So anyway, we'll clarify that 16 on the plan. 17 Q. With regard to the elements of the 18 site plan, are there any variances? Now, of 19 course the number of parking spaces, do we meet 20 the required number based upon the reduced plan 21 now of 59 dwelling units? 22 A. Yes, the parking meets the RSIS 23 standards. 24 Q. With regard to the size of the 25 spaces, it was noted at the last meeting that the Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 37 Bertin - Direct 1 size of the spaces were 8-1/2 by 18 which is the 2 municipal ordinance but you've reorganized those 3 to meet the RSIS standard? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And that was in response to 6 questioning by Mr. Lamb as to the RSIS standard 7 versus the municipal ordinance? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. And all but two spaces meet that 10 criteria? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. With regard to the aisle width, the 13 drive aisles and such, can you confirm that in no 14 area is it less than 24 foot in width, in some 15 areas 26 feet, in no area less than 24 feet in 16 the drive aisle? 17 A. I want to clarify that. The back up 18 aisle is required to be 24 feet. That's where 19 cars back up into the aisle. The drive aisles 20 may be 20 feet but that's permitted. It's the 21 back up aisle that's 24 feet throughout the 22 building, just the aisle that goes north-south 23 inside the building happens to be 26 feet. All 24 the other back up aisles are 24 feet. 25 Q. And they meet the standard? Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 38 Bertin - Direct 1 A. In accordance with the Residential 2 Site Improvement Standards. 3 Q. You did note width of the driveways 4 or the width of driveways. Is there an issue 5 there or a deficiency in any way? 6 A. No, there isn't. I, in my haste, I 7 looked at minimum and thought it was maximum and 8 an item on our cover sheet indicates the minimum 9 driveway width, that's the driveway to the 10 street. 11 Q. Right. 12 A. And for a one way driveway the 13 minimum width is 10 feet and our driveways are 14 two one way driveways and they're each 20 feet. 15 Q. So you're double of the minimum 16 required? 17 A. Yes, yes. And we have no two-way 18 driveway, they're single, one way driveways, so 19 they comply. 20 MR. SOMICK: What's the distance of 21 the back up where you have your handicapped spots 22 where I guess this is C2.2, you have handicapped 23 spaces on the, what's that I guess -- 24 THE WITNESS: I'll point to it, 25 right there (indicating). Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 39 Bertin - Direct 1 MR. SOMICK: No, no, other side. 2 THE WITNESS: Over here 3 (indicating). 4 MR. SOMICK: Where you go into the 5 trash and lobby and elevator. What's -- 6 THE WITNESS: There's a dimension 7 further up the page and it's 24 feet. So the 8 walls of the lobby were set 24 feet. 9 MR. SOMICK: I see it. Yeah. Yeah. 10 THE WITNESS: That's how we 11 determine the size of the lot. 12 MR. SOMICK: All right. 13 Q. Now, could you describe the existing 14 conditions or improvements on the site? 15 A. Sure, yes. Right now part of the 16 property was maintained as lawn on the north 17 half. The south half contains three tennis 18 courts, to half basketball courts and there is an 19 area behind the tennis courts and I'm just going 20 to put my hands on the plan, next to the proposed 21 building, I'll show that on another exhibit where 22 there's a slope but it's all -- you can see it's 23 been stabilized probably when the courts were put 24 in. There's geotech style fabric and stone on 25 top of it indicates that someone had massaged it. Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 40 Bertin - Direct 1 There are also a couple of retaining walls on the 2 property. Well, there's retaining walls on the 3 lower end of the property, but there's also I'm 4 going to point to, I'm looking at sheet 2.2 there 5 are several stone retaining walls on the back 6 part of the property up the hill. 7 Q. So those three at grade markings 8 delineate some existing rock retaining walls on 9 the site? 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. They were there when you first 12 visited the site? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. They were not recently installed but 15 based upon your personal inspection you can tell 16 that from its age? 17 A. Correct. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bertin, we have a 19 question up here. 20 MR. BASELICE: Can you go back to 21 the driveways? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 MR. BASELICE: With respect to the 24 driveways, you said each one way is 10 foot or 20 25 foot? Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 41 Bertin - Direct 1 THE WITNESS: No, each driveway 2 proposed is 20 feet wide. 3 MR. BASELICE: Okay. 4 THE WITNESS: There's two driveways 5 on the plan and there's a dimension if you're 6 looking at C2.2 they're both 20 feet. 7 MR. BASELICE: It says 10 feet. 8 MR. SOMICK: No, where the E is it 9 says 20. I see what you're saying the 10 R but 10 if you go up -- 11 THE WITNESS: The R indicates the 12 curb radius. Sorry about that. There's also I 13 should mention evidence of a prior road that went 14 through here, a path of some form but it's 15 leveled off and actually we used it when we 16 brought up the excavators up to do so some of the 17 test pits which we'll talk about later, came 18 right through there. 19 Q. Now, the proposal is to construct a 20 building with surface parking and four levels of 21 residential above it, a total of five stories; is 22 that correct? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. And with regard to the circulation 25 of vehicles under the building, could you just Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 42 Bertin - Direct 1 show us with your laser pointer what the 2 circulation pattern is designed to do? 3 A. I'm going to -- I have a plan here 4 which is in essence drawing 2.2 but I've taken 5 all the notes off so we could see it better. 6 Q. We're going to mark it then. This 7 will now be A-4, Celeste. 8 (Applicant's Exhibit 4, Interior 9 Parking Plan dated 8/29/09, was received in 10 evidence.) 11 Q. This exhibit that you're marking 12 just for clarification has the information from 13 the other exhibits except you removed a lot of 14 information so it's easier to read; is that 15 correct? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. There are no changes in anything 18 except the removal of a lot of gobbledygook so we 19 can see a clear picture? 20 A. That's one way of calling it. A-4 21 is entitled Interior Parking and it's got a date 22 of 8/25/09. Why, I don't know, but that's the 23 date that's on the plan. 24 Q. Now, Calisto since you just said 25 that, so before Mr. Lamb says anything, it's Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 43 Bertin - Direct 1 marked 8/29/09? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do the dimensions of the parking 4 spaces reflect the current plan or is the date on 5 that a mistake? 6 A. No, the date is fine, I see there's 7 a revision date of 7/13/10, so I saved myself. 8 So this plan is current. 9 Q. See what I have to work with. 10 So that's a good plan, right? 11 A. Yes, it's a good plan. 12 Q. Thanks. 13 A. Well, it's a matter of opinion, but 14 -- 15 Q. 7/13? 16 A. 7/13, yes. 17 Q. So 7/13 plan is a cleaned up version 18 of the underground or surface parking under the 19 building, correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Show us what the circulation design 22 is, what is expected to happen to people that 23 will live there and come to occupy it? 24 A. Well, we propose there will be two 25 driveways. The driveway on the north is the Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 44 Bertin - Direct 1 entrance driveway, and there's an aisle with cars 2 on either side of it, circulation in the 3 remaining I'm going to call it the courtyard 4 parking as opposed to the garage parking goes in 5 a counterclockwise direction and then there is 6 the exit driveway on the south side. The arrows 7 shown on this plan are arrows that would be 8 painted on the ground so we continue this 9 circulation. You'll see there's two arrows 10 heading to the north and to the south. Those are 11 at the garage doors of the building. So entering 12 the garage door there's a drive aisle that makes 13 a U shape open to the Hudson River or open to the 14 east and parking is provided on either side of 15 that U, that aisle. Those are all, all these 16 aisles that I'm pointing to are 24 foot wide with 17 a backup aisle. 18 Q. So under the building you could go 19 in either direction? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You can go out clockwise and 22 counterclockwise, correct? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. And they're sufficiently wide for 25 both maneuvers? Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 45 Bertin - Direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And yet again there's one main 3 entrance and one main exit on and off the site, 4 correct? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. Anything else? 7 A. And we also have a little 8 circulation aisle parallel to River Road between 9 the two -- the entrance and exit driveway to make 10 sure we have a circulation that no one has to 11 stop and back up. 12 Q. So if anybody needs to circulate in 13 any direction or go around, they don't have to 14 back up if they're looking for a space or their 15 own space, they can continue circulating in 16 different patterns on the site? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. Regarding garbage, refuse, the 19 location and garbage pick up and delivery, how is 20 that anticipated to be handled at this point? 21 A. Well, there are two trash rooms, one 22 on either wing of the building, not far from the 23 garage doors. 24 I don't know, Mr. Carballo, did you 25 discuss trash? Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 46 Bertin - Direct 1 MR. CARBALLO: I did last time. 2 You're welcome to do it. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay, there will be 4 compactors and trash will be collected in these 5 rooms and brought to the garage doors for the 6 garbage truck to pick up. And the truck will 7 then make that circulation around the courtyard 8 parking. 9 Q. It's not necessary for the garbage 10 trucks to you actually go into the garage doors 11 underneath the building, they can remain in the 12 courtyard to perform their function? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. Now, with regard to, you have a note 15 here "ped access," is that pedestrian access? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. What do you want to say to us 18 about pedestrian access? 19 A. We're going to replace or improve 20 the sidewalk along River Road. We have -- Mr. 21 Carballo mentioned the lobbies are in the lower 22 corners of the courtyard closest to the 23 driveways, so there's an entrance right from the 24 building out to the sidewalk on either wing of 25 the building. So any pedestrians coming, who Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 47 Bertin - Direct 1 happen to be walking, maybe from the bus stop 2 would be able to enter the building without 3 having to walk through the parking lot. 4 Q. And this of course would be open to 5 the general public, even the residential of the 6 Galaxy, they can traverse that? 7 A. Yes, the sidewalk on River Road 8 absolutely. 9 Q. To everybody? 10 A. That's open to everybody. But I'm 11 just saying that there's access for people to go 12 right into the building. 13 Q. And let's talk about it, about the 14 landscaping plan that you have. 15 A. Okay. Now we're going to mark 16 another plan. 17 (Applicant's Exhibit 5, Landscape 18 Plan with a revision date of 7/13/10, was 19 received in evidence.) 20 A. What has been marked A-5 is called 21 the landscape rendering. 22 Q. What's the revision date? 23 A. Revision date is 7/13/10. There is 24 a landscape plan in the set and that's drawings 25 2.4. 2.4 is a landscape plan. What I wanted to Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 48 Bertin - Direct 1 do is color it up so you could see. 2 Q. So the 2.4 exhibit that's in your 14 3 sheet master exhibit is this, this plan except 4 for the color? 5 A. Yes, the color and the notes have 6 been removed so we can see from a bird's eye view 7 what the property will look like. 8 Q. And just give us, please, very 9 briefly the landscaping schedule. You don't have 10 to repeat each piece -- 11 A. I'm not going to. We've outlined 12 the building in black so you could see the 13 building because it's covered in green and brown. 14 What we have on the north side is lawn area and 15 on the south side we have lawn area. But also on 16 the south side there are some Us here and there's 17 a couple shade trees, there's also a few shade 18 trees within the parking lot. We have some 19 spruce trees that we've indicated to be planted 20 along the back of the property to fill in where 21 trees may have been disturbed, just to fill in. 22 There's a dark or a medium green 23 color that runs along the back. That's supposed 24 to be something like a crown vetch, a tall grass 25 that is self-maintaining because there's nobody Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 49 Bertin - Direct 1 walking back there, it will just be cut once in a 2 while. The roof of the building is green with 3 all these speckles that's because we're using 4 what's called a green roof and actually it's 5 required in the ordinance that we have at least 6 50 percent of the roof area covered or is planted 7 or is green. 8 Q. Now, Mr. Bertin, this exhibit that's 9 up there, this A-5, does this depict the roof 10 plan of the building? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And so all that green is on the roof 13 of the building? 14 A. Yes, all the green within that black 15 area is the seeded roof area. 16 Q. Now, we had neglected to provide 17 that at the earlier meeting, that's a recent 18 submission, isn't it? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And could you just take us through 21 what the ordinance requires and tell us whether 22 you meet the ordinance or fail to meet the 23 ordinance or exceed the ordinance? 24 A. Meet the ordinance. I exceed the 25 ordinance. The building footprint, the entire Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 50 Bertin - Direct 1 footprint of the building is 31,740 square feet. 2 The landscape area shown on the building is 3 18,126 square feet. So it's in excess of 50 4 percent, so we exceed the ordinance. 5 Q. You got about 1500 square feet 6 beyond the requirement? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Is there a reason you did that? 9 A. Well, we -- that happens to be the 10 penthouse, the roof of the penthouse. So we 11 decided to landscape the entire penthouse roof 12 and that turned out to meet the ordinance so we 13 stopped there. There are other colors here, some 14 dark brown and some light brown. The dark brown 15 happen to be the patios from the penthouse 16 apartments, there are patios on the roof and the 17 light brown is the roof itself. So it's a 18 untreated roof surface. 19 Q. Have you yet contemplated how you 20 would maintain the grass? Does it actually get 21 mowed or what? 22 A. No, it's a special grass that's 23 designed for roof systems. It's actually 24 maintenance free. Even in the hot sun you don't 25 have to water it. We're putting provisions to Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 51 Bertin - Direct 1 irrigate it regardless. 2 Q. So it doesn't get burnt out brown 3 and it doesn't need to be trimmed and cut 4 regularly, correct? 5 A. It's not planted in soil, it's 6 planted in a special medium which is only a 7 couple inches thick. But part of this green roof 8 is that it holds water. So it will hold an inch 9 or so of water on the roof which will accommodate 10 the normal -- the one year, two year storm. The 11 storm you have on a regular basis, not a 12 torrential downpour, that water will never leave 13 the roof. 14 Q. Does the ordinance detail this 15 system or is this something you've discovered and 16 you're utilizing? 17 A. This is something we've utilized. 18 Q. And can you walk on it, the grass 19 area? 20 A. Yeah, I guess you could. 21 Q. It's not recommended? 22 A. No, it's not recommended. It's tall 23 grass and you notice we have it in colors because 24 we specified five or six different plants and you 25 put them in clusters. They are flowering Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 52 Bertin - Direct 1 grasses. So from the air you will see waves of 2 different color grass or flowers on grass. 3 Q. So you're not going to have large 4 mechanical air-conditioning units and such and 5 compressors up here? 6 A. No. 7 Q. These are contained elsewhere on the 8 plan? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. With regard to this system does that 11 improve energy efficiency? Does it provide 12 insulation, anything like that? 13 A. Yes, it absolutely does. 14 Q. You want to tell us how it does? 15 A. Well, because you have landscaping 16 on top of a roof, it will not absorb heat like a 17 black tar roof or something like that. So it 18 will buffer the building from the sun. It will 19 also -- it also has insulation components to it 20 so it will also help keep the building warmer in 21 the wintertime. 22 Q. Does this system in any way have 23 recognition by any agency such as certification, 24 governmental approval from the federal or state 25 level? Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 53 Bertin - Direct 1 A. Yes, this is part of the LEED. This 2 is LEED approved. We've also used this system in 3 Jersey City where the Jersey City Planning 4 Department has reviewed it and approved it for 5 this type of use. 6 Q. You used the word LEED, could you 7 explain to everyone what we mean by that? 8 A. Leadership in Energy and 9 Environmental Design. It's a program where 10 actually buildings can become certified as LEED. 11 They have to meet certain criteria. There's 80, 12 90 different items. 13 Q. It's a positive thing? 14 A. Oh, it's absolutely a positive 15 thing. 16 Q. Energy efficient? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And environmentally friendly? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Regarding lighting on the site, 21 would you just briefly discuss for us where the 22 lighting is located, the height of any lighting 23 poles, whether there will be any lighting 24 spillage to the neighbors especially at the 25 Galaxy and such? Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 54 Bertin - Direct 1 A. Correct. Well, we only have two 2 pole lights and they're in the parking lot. 3 There's two double lights. 4 Q. So it's not likely that people in 5 the Galaxy will see those lights directly because 6 it's hidden by the building itself? 7 A. And they're called cut off light so 8 there is no light going up. The bulb is recessed 9 in a housing. We also have for security purposes 10 only three lights on the north and south side of 11 the building. 12 Q. What about up on the roof? 13 A. There will be no lights on the roof 14 other than from the apartments. 15 Q. So there are no bollards of any type 16 that you envision? 17 A. No, we have -- no, we have not put 18 them on. There are no lights along the back of 19 the building and all these lights are at 14 feet 20 above the ground and they shine down. 21 Q. Did you do an analysis in your 22 plans? You don't have to put it on the board, 23 just tell us if you have a plan that deals with 24 that. 25 A. Yes, yes. The -- we have a plan Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 55 Bertin - Direct 1 with footcandle data, lighting intensity data, 2 and the average intensity on the parking lot is a 3 little over three. It ranges from say one to 4 maybe four, four and a half in the parking lot. 5 We -- because of the way we positioned the 6 lights, there is no spillage across the property 7 lines. When I say spillage, I mean it's 8 nondetectable, it's less than half a footcandle 9 along the property lines. 10 Q. Now, along the front sidewalk of the 11 property is there any lighting there to be 12 provided? 13 A. No. Well, there's street lights. 14 There are utility poles with lights on them. As 15 a matter of fact, there's one right near the exit 16 driveway. 17 Q. So we're going to utilize that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And the sprinkler system, you've 20 expressed to me that there's a certain type of 21 system for the sprinkler? 22 A. Yes. What we've done here is added 23 another feature which again comes from LEED. We 24 have a rain harvesting system here. So in other 25 words, the water that comes off the roof is going Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 56 Bertin - Direct 1 to go into a tank which is located under the 2 parking lot. If the tank is full and it rains, 3 the water will just wash through but the tank 4 will be of sufficient size so that we could run 5 the sprinkler system -- because I didn't mention 6 the entire frontage is -- has shrubs, there is no 7 lawn there. It's all shrubs. So if we need to 8 water the lawn or shrubs, we can use the water 9 from that tank. We can also use it on the roof. 10 So we'll not be using portable public water to 11 water anything at this site, we're going to be 12 using rainwater. It's called rain harvesting. 13 Q. Now, with regard to utilities for 14 the building, one of the comments indicated a 15 question as to the natural gas hookup or natural 16 gas for this building. Is there any -- is 17 natural gas going to be used in this building? 18 A. No, there will be no natural gas. 19 It will be electric heat. 20 Q. And yet it's so close to the 21 building, right? 22 A. Well, we have a natural gas lane, 23 yes. 24 Q. But we're going to go fully 25 electric? Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 57 Bertin - Direct 1 A. Yes, it will be fully electric. 2 Q. And water, do we have water service, 3 sanitation, sewerage, storm drain? Do we have 4 three services provided to us by the Township of 5 North Bergen? 6 A. Yes, the sewer line will go right to 7 the sewerage treatment plant without crossing the 8 street or entering the street. There's a 30-inch 9 water main on the road right in front of the site 10 which we'll connect to. And the storm drainage 11 we do have to go halfway across River Road. 12 Q. And you've had many discussions with 13 the municipal utility authority about the utility 14 connections, the cost and our contribution to the 15 same? 16 A. Yes, there has been some discussion 17 about providing an impact fee so to speak for the 18 sewer connection. A number -- well -- 19 Q. Whatever the township and the 20 municipal utilities authority and engineer 21 determine is appropriate, we'll address; is that 22 correct? 23 A. Yes, and that's being re-reviewed 24 right now by the engineer. 25 Q. Lastly, I neglected to ask you which Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 58 Bertin - Direct 1 I should have almost in the beginning of your 2 testimony, you described what variances there 3 were and variances -- and lack of other 4 variances. What zone is this property located 5 in? 6 A. In the P-2 Edge Cliff Zone. 7 Q. And you did review the zoning map 8 and ordinance; is that correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 MR. ALAMPI: Chairman, we'll have 11 another associate from Mr. Bertin's office who is 12 a licensed planner to discuss the planning zoning 13 element, but we just wanted to acknowledge what 14 zone the property is situated in. 15 Q. Now, you have put something up there 16 which I don't think I saw before tonight. 17 A. Not colored, you saw it in your 18 office. This is the lot disturbance plan. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. Or the slope disturbance, I guess 21 this is. 22 MS. HARTMANN: A-6. 23 Q. It's going to be A-6? 24 A. Yes and it's actually sheet C2.5 of 25 the set. The only thing we did in the -- the Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 59 Bertin - Direct 1 only thing we did is colored it. 2 Q. What are you calling that plan? 3 A. It's called the Slope Analysis Plan. 4 (Applicant's Exhibit 6, Slope 5 Analysis Plan, was received in evidence.) 6 Q. Now, this slope analysis plan is 7 part of your 14 sheet master exhibit package, 8 correct? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. The only thing is you're now -- 11 we're marking A-6 because you used an orange 12 marker to highlight something? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Could you tell us what you're 15 highlighting? 16 A. Well, again, outlined in black is 17 the U-shaped building and the front part which is 18 white is the flat area of the property. The part 19 that's in orange is a portion of the sloped area 20 that will be disturbed to construct this 21 building, and I'll mention that that sloped area 22 was previous -- the condition of the slope area 23 is that it was graded by somebody, there's a 24 geotech style fabric on it and there's stone on 25 top of that for stabilization and grass and weeds Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 60 Bertin - Direct 1 have been allowed to grow through. But that is 2 the only portion of the slope that will be 3 disturbed. 4 Q. This material or textile that you 5 observed, did it appear to be recently installed? 6 A. No, no. No, it's been there for a 7 long time. 8 Q. You've seen it for many years, 9 haven't you? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. In any event, could you tell us what 12 the square footage of that area is? 13 A. Yes, it's 5,629 square feet. 14 Q. And with the development plan that 15 is being proposed, would there have to be any 16 work in that 5600 square foot area? 17 A. Yes, the soil in that area would be 18 removed. 19 Q. And what would happen? 20 A. Well, it would be -- some of it 21 would be utilized on the site to -- for grading 22 purposes. The rest would be taken to another 23 site. 24 Q. And the building would go there? 25 A. And the building, I'm sorry, yes, Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 61 Bertin - Direct 1 the building would go there. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. And we show a line behind the 4 building we'll call limited disturbance figuring 5 that some equipment would have to go up there to 6 construct the building but there would be no 7 disturbance of the hillside beyond that and no 8 disturbance of the small portion of the Palisades 9 which outcrops on the back of the property and 10 retaining wall. 11 MR. SOMICK: And by limited 12 disturbance you mean you have to disturb the 13 ground to put heavy machinery up there? 14 THE WITNESS: Or scaffolding. 15 MR. BASELICE: The portion that a 16 steep slope that's in orange, none of that is the 17 Palisades, there is no cliff? 18 THE WITNESS: There is no cliff. 19 MR. BASELICE: There is no rock 20 underneath? 21 THE WITNESS: No rock. We've done 22 extensive studies on this property and I've gone 23 there myself on two or three occasions to look at 24 the excavator as we excavated through this 25 property to see where the rock is. And on two Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 62 Bertin - Direct 1 plans we do have elevations of the rock. We also 2 have another cross-section which I can show you 3 the top of the rock below grade. 4 Q. Now, Mr. Bertin, does the 5 geotechnical report that we referred to earlier 6 but had not been distributed deal with those 7 issues? 8 A. Yes, and they're shown -- yes, the 9 report was done -- the study was done through 10 that report. 11 Q. You can start over. Does the 12 geotechnical report deal with these issues? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And independent of the exhibit that 15 you are going to reveal, you would have to review 16 that report with the board and with the public, 17 correct? 18 A. Yes, I could. 19 MR. ALAMPI: So chairman, because it 20 wasn't previously distributed, I'll defer those 21 detailed questions other than the preliminary 22 question on the exhibit because I'm sure this 23 board having experienced the issue of a steep 24 slope and the activity at the Hudson County 25 Planning Board level as such would want to just Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 63 Bertin - Direct 1 get a sense of what we're talking about here. 2 Q. And with that, Calisto, what exhibit 3 is that? 4 MR. MUHLSTOCK: Can I ask one 5 question, Mr. Alampi, before we pass on that A-6 6 exhibit? 7 Mr. Bertin, what is the grade of the 8 area that will be disturbed? 9 MR. ALAMPI: I'm going to get to 10 that with the next exhibit. 11 MR. MUHLSTOCK: I'm sorry. Okay. 12 MR. ALAMPI: I know I'm a pain in 13 the rear, but let me do it my way. 14 Q. Go ahead, A-7. 15 (Applicant's Exhibit 7, drawing C4.1, 16 cross sections and gas main profile plan 17 was received in evidence.) 18 Q. Calisto, we're marking as A-7, can 19 you tell us what that plan is? 20 A. This is drawing C4.1 of the set that 21 was submitted and what I've done is colored or -- 22 Q. What do you call it? 23 A. It's called the cross-sections and 24 gas main profile plan. 25 Q. Could you tell us the latest Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 64 Bertin - Direct 1 revision date that's on it? 2 A. This has a revision date of February 3 6, 2010. 4 Q. Now, this is part of the 14 sheet 5 master exhibit, correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. But you have now added this brown 8 and other color to it? 9 A. Yes, just so it could be seen from 10 across the room. 11 Q. No changes have been made to the 12 delineation and the profile and the graph, just 13 the coloring? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. So we're marking the exhibit as A-7. 16 What is the function of this plan, what's the 17 purpose of it? 18 A. Well, it has many purposes. First, 19 to address the issue of the rock, soil borings 20 were done and test bits were done and we've 21 mapped out on the cross-section where we found 22 rock. 23 MR. LAMB: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, 24 I just think we need to establish a foundation 25 because, again, I don't have the other documents Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 65 Bertin - Direct 1 but I thought the testimony where the proffer was 2 that Johnson Soil did the tests and if Mr. Bertin 3 didn't do the test, then that should be made part 4 of the record. 5 That's my simple question if the 6 Chair wants to ask it. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you personally 8 observe the tests? 9 THE WITNESS: I went out there when 10 the borings were being done and when the tests 11 bits were being done. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 13 MR. LAMB: Did you make the -- well 14 -- 15 MR. ALAMPI: You can discredit him 16 in a few minutes, just let me get this out. 17 Q. Calisto, aren't you a principal of 18 the company that owns Johnson Soils? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And did you supervise this 21 geotechnical work? 22 A. For this job, yes. 23 Q. Did you participate in it because 24 Carmello asked you to go there? 25 A. Yes, and I also new that we'd be Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 66 Bertin - Direct 1 here. 2 Q. With that in the mind, just 3 preliminarily because we're going to recall you 4 because of the other report, just tell us what 5 this plan is telling us and teach us how to read 6 it. 7 A. There are borings done and 8 excavations done and this upper cross-section is 9 of the middle of the building. And you'll see 10 there's these black targets shown on the bottom. 11 That's the elevation where rock was hit as the 12 excavator dug down. And you can see that rock 13 was hit at an elevation below the building and as 14 you move from the back of the building closer to 15 River Road, that's to the east, the rock drops 16 dramatically. So the point of this picture is to 17 show that we don't anticipate excavating any of 18 the Palisades for this building. 19 Now, that's not to say there may not 20 be a little outcropping, you know, to get the 21 footing in, but we're not going to be excavating 22 any faces on the Palisades to construct this 23 building. 24 Q. Now, other than constructing the 25 footing for this building, there is no Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 67 Bertin - Direct 1 subterranean chamber or basement or anything like 2 that planned for this building, is there? 3 A. No. 4 Q. You don't expect to be excavating 10 5 feet below grade on the flat surface, do you? 6 A. No, below the finish floor 7 elevation, no. 8 Q. And you're not surprised that the 9 rock formation falls away because the river is on 10 the east of this property? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. And there is no rocks coming out of 13 the river is there? 14 A. No. 15 Q. With the Palisades you have a brown 16 area and I'm going to stop there. That profiles 17 the slope of the dirt and the vegetation and the 18 like? 19 A. Correct. 20 MR. ALAMPI: Chairman, I'm not going 21 to go any further, I'm sure the board wants has a 22 question or two. We're going to recall 23 Mr. Bertin, I would go into this in great detail 24 with his report. Being that it wasn't 25 circulated, I think everyone including Mr. Lamb Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 68 Bertin - Direct 1 can read the report and why go through it three 2 times. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Fine. 4 MR. BASELICE: How many borings were 5 taken, do you know, Mr. Bertin? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 Q. Do you have it in your report or do 8 you show it on your plan? 9 A. It's on the drawings. 10 Q. Just show us where it is on your 11 plan. 12 MR. LAMB: Also while he's answering 13 that question, I just want to make sure you 14 understand my proffer that he was qualified as a 15 civil engineer is the proffer. But I intend to 16 ask him questions about whether he has specific 17 qualifications as a geologist because I didn't 18 hear that in that initial testimony. 19 A. On drawing C2.1 there are targets 20 shown on the plan. This information was taken 21 from the geotechnical report and put on our 22 plans. So there were -- the targets noted with 23 the letter B, B1, B2, and B4 were actually soil 24 borings with a drill rig. There was a boring B3 25 but we abandoned it because -- we couldn't -- it Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 69 Bertin - Direct 1 turned out we couldn't get there. So we 2 abandoned it. But anyway we had them labeled 3 this way. So there were three soil borings and 4 then up on the hill there were seven test pits 5 dug behind the back of the building. And those 6 are labeled TP-1 through TP-7. And what's shown 7 there is the elevation of the top of the rock. 8 So we have the grade elevation and then with a 9 tape measure we measured down to see what the top 10 of the rock was. So we have the elevations of 11 the rock at that point. And you could see 12 between TP-4 and TP-3 we actually hit a sheer 13 face in the rock where the subsurface cliff face 14 rose 15 feet. 15 Q. You want to put your hands on that 16 plan to tell us where that happened? 17 A. Right, about 10 feet behind the 18 building. But, see, the bottom of the rock was 19 found at elevation 10, the finished floor on this 20 building is at elevation 11 or 12, 12 in the 21 back. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: You didn't do any 23 borings under where the garage is going to be? 24 THE WITNESS: No, we didn't have to 25 because if you look from boring 4 to boring 1 Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 70 Bertin - Direct 1 that's what's shown here, we know there's rock 2 and we know it's down below. More borings will 3 be done prior to construction but we wanted to 4 get a handle on the topography and the Palisades 5 for planning purposes. But this building will be 6 supported on piles because the soil is soft. 7 MR. BASELICE: Can you go back to 8 your orange portion? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 MR. BASELICE: Were any borings done 11 in that area? 12 THE WITNESS: No, there was a boring 13 done to the north of it and test pits done to the 14 south of it. 15 MR. BASELICE: Why? 16 THE WITNESS: Well, one, we couldn't 17 get to it because it's a hill. And we did not -- 18 we know that the rock drops as you move east. So 19 we had enough information we thought we covered 20 our basis. We didn't expect the rock to be lower 21 where we dug than a few feet further east. 22 Because you could see the trend and that's -- 23 this is common along the west side of River Road. 24 Q. Have you engineered any properties 25 along River Road in this area? Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 71 Bertin - Direct 1 MR. BASELICE: Bad question. 2 MR. ALAMPI: Well, I wasn't the 3 attorney on that. So I'm okay. 4 A. Well, this is typical, I'm going to 5 jump to the Exxon station in Edgewater. 6 Q. Are you familiar with the conditions 7 generally in the area? 8 A. Yes. Yes. 9 Q. Personally from experience? 10 A. Yes. But what I'm going to say is 11 way up in Edgewater at the Exxon station the 12 ground is the same. I was the engineer on that 13 project, so the building is on solid rock, the 14 tanks are floating just like this. So it varies. 15 MR. BASELICE: Just for purposes of 16 the cliff I want to make sure we're not touching 17 the cliff, that's my main concern. 18 THE WITNESS: Right and anything 19 that we do touch is going to be well below grade 20 but we're not touching anything that's exposed. 21 This looking again at Exhibit A-7 all the way to 22 the right we show something, it's existing cliff 23 face. That's the small portion of cliff face 24 that is exposed and that's 100 feet behind the 25 building. There it is. Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 72 Bertin - Direct 1 Q. Now, Calisto, because we probably 2 are breaking in a half hour and I'm sure everyone 3 has questions and we're going to recall this 4 witness, I just want to finish up very quickly. 5 We received a comment letter from Boswell 6 Engineering dated July 26, 2010? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Very briefly, the at least 45 to 55 9 percent of the comment letter were housekeeping 10 issues and comments about changes you made on one 11 sheet that you might have forgotten to carry over 12 on another sheet, things of that nature; is that 13 correct? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. And with regard to several other 16 items, you're able to address some of the 17 comments and you will respond to it? 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. ALAMPI: Chairman, I'm not going 20 to take another half hour to go into that because 21 I think the board and Mr. Lamb and others want to 22 have at least a preliminary -- 23 MR. MUHLSTOCK: Mr. Bertin, stay 24 with that drawing that's A-6, my question never 25 got answered. That orange area that's going to Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 73 Bertin - Direct 1 be somewhat disturbed from the building, correct? 2 THE WITNESS: (Witness nods.) 3 MR. MUHLSTOCK: What is the grade 4 there because it doesn't indicate on your drawing 5 what the topographical grade is at that point. 6 THE WITNESS: What we indicated on 7 the plan is slopes over 20 percent and slopes 8 under 20 percent. 9 MR. MUHLSTOCK: No, no, then I'm not 10 asking the question correctly. 11 You indicated earlier in your 12 testimony that you start at 9.5 grade at River 13 Road? 14 THE WITNESS: Correct. 15 MR. MUHLSTOCK: And that the rear of 16 the parking area is give or take 15 feet; is that 17 correct? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes. 19 MR. MUHLSTOCK: Is that orange area 20 at or about 15 feet grade? 21 THE WITNESS: No, that orange area 22 is the exclusion. The 15 is along the back line 23 here where there's a retaining wall. That rises 24 in grade and of course it's about at the back of 25 the building it's at elevation 30. Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 74 Bertin - Cross 1 MR. MUHLSTOCK: Okay. 2 THE WITNESS: So the top of that 3 orange or the westerly portion of that orange 4 area is elevation 30 and you could see the 5 contours on the left side of the property line. 6 You could find a 30 and follow it. So that rises 7 up 15 feet higher than the grade adjacent to it 8 to the north. 9 MR. MUHLSTOCK: Okay, that's what I 10 wanted to know. Thanks. 11 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Board members, 13 any questions? 14 (No response.) 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Lamb. 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. LAMB: 18 Q. You indicated that the excess 19 building coverage was 6.6 percent, I believe over 20 the 25 percent? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And that was approximately 66 -- I 23 think you said 6,630 square feet? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And basically you got that by taking Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 75 Bertin - Cross 1 the excess percent and multiplying it by the 2 square foot of the lot area? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. The 2.13 area is a little more than 5 100,000 square feet, 6.6 percent times that 6 equals 6630 square feet? 7 A. Very good. 8 Q. You agree that the property subject 9 of course there are tennis courts, but the 10 property is basically a vacant piece of property 11 all the four lots that comprises it? 12 A. Except for the tennis courts in the 13 lower end it's vacant. 14 Q. Are the courts currently being 15 utilized by anyone? 16 A. Not that I know of. 17 Q. Do you know what the condition of 18 the courts are, are they usable? 19 A. I don't think so. 20 Q. Okay. And is it fair to say that 21 you could design as an engineer a totally 22 complying building that complies with the zoning 23 ordinance except for the lot area? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Now, if I took the 6,620 square feet Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 76 Bertin - Cross 1 and I took that away from the building footprint 2 on sheet -- I don't know which one, C2.2 and I 3 don't think we marked them in the upper 4 right-hand side corner, if I took 6620 square 5 feet from that footprint, is it fair to say that 6 then I would have a complying building coverage 7 for this project? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Now, because the project is four 10 stories above the parking, if I took 6630 square 11 feet times four I would basically get a little 12 more than 25,000 square feet of residential 13 building plus another 6600 square feet on the 14 ground floor? 15 A. Well the, parking wouldn't count but 16 yes, we have about 24,000 square feet. 17 Q. So for you to design a complying 18 building coverage plan, if you pulled this 19 building back, eliminated 6630 square feet, you 20 would eliminate about 25,000 square feet of 21 residential units? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. That's roughly 15 percent of the 24 size of the building? 25 A. 20 percent. Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 77 Bertin - Cross 1 Q. If you assume -- 2 A. Yes, I'm sorry. 3 Q. -- between 15 and 20 percent I think 4 the building is 140,000 square feet? 5 A. Right, right. 6 Q. So between 15 to 20 percent of the 7 building would have to be reduced? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. If I take 59 units and I took away 10 15 to 20 percent of the units, roughly I'm losing 11 eight to 12 units? 12 A. Something like that. 13 Q. Okay. And of course you're 14 losing -- you're eliminating that first floor as 15 well, the parking on the 6600 square foot 16 footprint? 17 A. The parking would be exposed, there 18 would be no roof over it, it would be pavement. 19 Q. Right. 20 A. Right. 21 Q. And that would be compliant from a 22 building coverage? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Now, I know we testified that 25 there's only two variances, the lot area and the Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 78 Bertin - Cross 1 building coverage. You agree that two of the 2 parking spaces are deficient by a minor amount? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. The RSIS requires nine by 18 so 5 you're short on two of the parking spaces? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. So that's a waiver that you require 8 in addition to the two variances that we set 9 forth; is that correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. Now, are you familiar with 12 how front yard setback is calculated on the North 13 Bergen Zoning Ordinance? 14 A. For this zone my understanding it's 15 measured from the curb line. 16 Q. And is it fair to say that the 17 distance between the property line is what I 18 guess one of the board members asked you, 5.7 19 feet or 5.4 feet? 20 A. There's a dimension on the plan 21 showing 5.7 from the right-of-way line to the 22 front of the building. 23 Q. Okay. What is the distance from the 24 lot line or the property line to the closest 25 portion of the building in the front yard? Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 79 Bertin - Cross 1 A. 5.7 feet. 2 Q. Okay. So therefore is it fair to 3 say that you do not have 15 feet setback from the 4 property line, the lot line facing on River Road? 5 A. No, we do not have 15 feet from the 6 property line, we have 15 feet from the curb 7 line. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. Or 15.7. 10 Q. Do you know where in the zoning 11 ordinance it permits you to make that 12 calculation? 13 A. For this zone I recall reading it, 14 that's how I read it. It was from the curb line. 15 MR. LAMB: Okay. I'm going to 16 respectfully request that the architect not 17 consult with the engineer in the middle of 18 cross-examination. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 20 MR. ALAMPI: Well, it might help him 21 to remember, but I'm sure we'll have to go 22 through -- 23 THE CHAIRMAN: No, no coaching. 24 MR. ALAMPI: I'm sorry. 25 THE WITNESS: It wasn't coaching, Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 80 Bertin - Cross 1 believe me it wasn't. 2 MR. ALAMPI: I'm sure we'll have to 3 go through the ordinance book page by page. 4 Q. I'm going to refer you to Section 5 11.3-C which are yard regulations in the front 6 yard. Co you read that, C-1, excuse me, where it 7 says front yard. 8 A. Yes, I just want to make sure we're 9 in the right zone. "No front yard will be 10 required other than that to comply with the 11 standards cited in that section and to provide a 12 15 foot setback for a paved sidewalk to be 13 installed by the developer." 14 Q. Okay. So it says in Zone P-2, does 15 it not, that specific provision? 16 A. Yes. Yes. 17 Q. So you have to provide under that 18 provision 15 foot setback for a paved sidewalk; 19 is that correct? 20 THE CHAIRMAN: What page are you on? 21 MR. LAMB: I'm sorry, Roman numeral 22 XI-6. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: We got it. 24 Do you guys have a comment? 25 MS. HARTMANN: I had spoken to Mr. Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 81 Bertin - Cross 1 Muhlstock about this because this was a question 2 that was raised at the last meeting and I 3 reviewed it and it's my opinion that Mr. Bertin 4 is actually interpreting the way I would 5 interpret it. First, there's a sidewalk already 6 present. This zone does not require front yard 7 setback at all unless it's necessary to provide a 8 sidewalk. The sidewalk is already in place, the 9 applicant has 15 feet to the curb line which 10 includes the sidewalk, that's how I interpreted 11 it as well. 12 MR. LAMB: Okay. If I could 13 continue. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead. 15 Q. So you've heard the interpretation 16 but if -- do you agree that if you're required to 17 calculate it from the lot line, the property 18 line, that you would be deficient by the 19 difference between 15 feet and 5.7 feet, 11.3 20 feet? 21 A. If that were the method, but I don't 22 believe that's the method. 23 MR. ALAMPI: It's 9.3. 24 MR. LAMB: I'm sorry, 9.3, I have 25 his same math-- Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 82 Bertin - Cross 1 MR. ALAMPI: Disease. 2 MR. LAMB: Right. 3 Q. Now, Mr. Bertin, you recognize that 4 the Township of North Bergen Zone Ordinance have 5 diagrams in the rear of the zoning ordinance? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And the diagrams help explain the 8 various definitions and references in the zoning 9 ordinance? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. I'm going to draw your 12 attention to Figure 2. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: On what page? 14 MR. LAMB: It's not a numbered page, 15 Mr. Chairman. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. 17 MR. MUHLSTOCK: We have it. 18 Q. I'm going to draw your attention to 19 Figure 2, the upper diagram, and can you tell me 20 where it says "required front yard," is that 21 measured from the front lot line or the 22 right-of-way line? 23 A. It would be measured from the 24 right-of-way line. 25 Q. And right-of-way line is -- the Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 83 Bertin - Cross 1 right-of-way line is the same as the front lot 2 line in this particular example, is it not? 3 A. Yes, the arrow is off but I would 4 agree with you. 5 Q. Okay. Now, in this case, let's say 6 A-5, this shows it a little better, where does 7 the right-of-way line end on A-5? 8 A. The right-of-way line is this dark 9 line parallel to River Road. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. Ten feet off the curb. 12 Q. I'm going to ask you that put the 13 right-of-way line in orange or just put a piece 14 of it, we don't need to mark up the whole thing. 15 Okay. 16 And isn't it fair to say that that 17 right-of-way line is the same as the lot line, 18 that intersection? 19 A. It is one in the same. 20 Q. And so if this is the right-of-way 21 line or lot line based upon this diagram, doesn't 22 this diagram suggest -- and I understand that 23 there was a discussion, but doesn't the diagram 24 suggest that you measure the 15 feet from the 25 orange line? Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 84 Bertin - Cross 1 A. I understand where you're coming 2 from but the ordinance also says no front yard is 3 required and then it talks about a sidewalk. So 4 it was my interpretation, and I did speak with -- 5 well, Mr. Curry and Mr. McGrath, the town's 6 planner and other planner and engineer, and we 7 had several discussions about this and we came 8 away with that there is no front yard required. 9 That's the first part of the sentence of the 10 paragraph. 11 Q. Now, I've reviewed the reports and I 12 could have missed it, do any of those 13 professionals, engineer, planner, specifically 14 indicate that in any of their reports? 15 A. No, because this is something that 16 was discussed and decided upon a long time ago so 17 it didn't come up as an issue. 18 Q. And how long ago was that discussed 19 with him? 20 A. Four years ago when we first started 21 working on this. 22 Q. So in connection with prior 23 application? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. So your proposal, this proposal is Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 85 Bertin - Cross 1 to put 140,000 square foot building essentially 2 five -- starting 5.7 feet from the edge of the 3 current right-of-way? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Now, have you reviewed any official 6 maps or traffic plans for the Township of North 7 Bergen? 8 A. I don't -- not by that name, no. 9 Q. Do you know if there's any plans to 10 provide future road widening on River Road either 11 through the county or Township of North Bergen? 12 A. I've had discussions with county 13 about that. River Road was just finished. I 14 mean, recently. So it has been widened and 15 right-of-way was taken and to the best of my 16 knowledge there is no future plans to widen River 17 Road. 18 Q. So it's your position then, again, 19 that you didn't provide a front yard variance 20 because you don't think it's necessary under the 21 zoning ordinance as currently written? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. Now, do you have the full site plan 24 as an exhibit? 25 A. This is the site plan. Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 86 Bertin - Cross 1 Q. C2.2? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. We have it, this was marked -- I'm 4 sorry, Mr. Chairman, the full site plan was that 5 A-2? 6 MR. ALAMPI: Collectively A-2. 7 MR. LAMB: I'm just going to marked 8 A-2. 9 MR. CARBALLO: A-2 was the other 10 thing. 11 MR. MUHLSTOCK: The entire package 12 was marked A-2. 13 MR. LAMB: I'm just going to mark 14 A-2. 15 MR. ALAMPI: A-3. 16 MR. LAMB: A-3. 17 Q. Whatever it is, it's C2.2? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. And on C2.2, on the site plan for 20 the subject property is the access for the 21 proposed access for the Transco Gas transmission 22 line located on that actual site plan? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Where is that located, please? 25 A. We did not discuss it but there is Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 87 Bertin - Cross 1 in discussion -- well, it's located along the 2 north side of the site along the north property 3 line. 4 Q. And this -- when you say the north 5 side, it's essentially the 20 feet is the entire 6 side yard on the northerly side of the property? 7 A. Yes, that's the entire required side 8 yard. 9 Q. Now there's a detail of that to the 10 right on C2.2, is there not? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And the detail indicates that's the 13 proposed access to the -- for the transmission 14 company? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, you also indicate that it's a 17 -- proposed to be a license, is it a license or 18 an easement? 19 A. It's proposed to be a license. 20 Q. Okay. And has Transco agreed that 21 it will be a license? 22 A. That's a legal issue. I believe 23 they've agreed to this in principle, the terms is 24 something for the attorneys. 25 Q. Is there any document in writing Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 88 Bertin - Cross 1 that says they approved this? 2 MR. ALAMPI: Mr. Chairman, these 3 issues are still the subject of contractual 4 discussion and negotiation, they are legal. Yes, 5 Mr. Bertin is a engineer so he could give an 6 opinion generically but they still haven't been 7 settled. I'll just offer to the board that we're 8 still in the discussion stages from legal 9 negotiation, contract negotiations and I'll offer 10 that, John, not as an objection per se but for 11 public information on the record. 12 Q. So that when you put on there it's a 13 licensed access, you don't really know that right 14 now based upon what Mr. Alampi just represented 15 to the board? 16 A. The legal term of it, no, the 17 function, I can tell you what the function is 18 for. 19 Q. Now, the function for that access, 20 is it intended that vehicles traverse in and out 21 of that access area? 22 A. For the purpose of maintaining the 23 line should that become necessary. 24 Q. Yes. Now, there was some reference 25 I believe with the architect's testimony that Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 89 Bertin - Cross 1 there's a staging area proposed also, that the 2 access goes to a staging area and/or a 3 maintenance area? 4 A. Maybe on the initial set of plans 5 but there is no maintenance area -- the initial 6 set of plans there was a doorway to a room in the 7 northwest corner. That doorway has been 8 eliminated, so there's nothing proposed to be 9 constructed in that 20 foot swatch. 10 Q. Okay. And that also includes 11 landscaping? 12 A. That's correct, only lawn. 13 Q. Transco has requested that you 14 remove all landscaping and trees? 15 A. They requested that we not plant any 16 landscaping or trees. And I have an e-mail from 17 Transco saying that they have agreed with the 18 plans except take away the trees which have been 19 taken away and we have not gotten a response 20 since we took the trees away. 21 Q. So essentially on the north side 22 you're proposing no trees or landscaping between 23 the building and the North Bergen Municipal 24 Utility Authority to the north? 25 A. Correct. Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 90 Bertin - Cross 1 Q. Are there windows on that side of 2 the building facing north? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Now, can you tell me the distance 5 between the northerly side of the building and 6 the southerly side of the proposed access? 7 A. It goes from the back of the 8 property it's zero, I mean, it's right on the 9 proposed access. And in the front it's three, 10 almost four feet at the front corner. And just 11 so you know, this proposed access is something we 12 offered to them. I could have made it 15 feet 13 wide. We said let's just use the whole setback, 14 that's how come it's 20 feet. It wasn't a 15 requirement, it's what I proposed. 16 Q. So essentially this access is going 17 to be used as an alley to get to the back of the 18 property? 19 A. Yes, should there be a need to 20 maintain any of the pipes that go through there. 21 Q. And maintenance vehicles can go back 22 there. What about emergency equipment, can 23 emergency equipment go back there? 24 A. Well, if you're talking about like a 25 fire engine or an ambulance, it will get back to Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 91 Bertin - Cross 1 the rear of the building and then you'll need a 2 track machine, a bulldozer, something like that 3 to get up the hill. A car will not be able to 4 drive up that hill. 5 Q. Okay. And so with zero setback from 6 the southerly edge of the access on the westerly 7 portion of the property to whatever you said a -- 8 A. 3.8 feet. 9 Q. With several feet on the northerly 10 property, is it your testimony that you do not 11 require a setback for the building from the 12 access right-of-way? 13 A. No, there is no need for it. 14 Q. Okay. Now, do you know where the 15 pipe is located? How big is the existing 16 transmission line on the northerly end of the 17 property? 18 A. My recollection it's 30 inches, I'm 19 going to look at the plan in a second, but the 20 line is located on the sewerage plant property. 21 It's not located next to the building until we 22 get to the back of the site and then the pipe 23 cuts across the property on the northwest corner 24 of the property. 25 Q. And that northerly property, the Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 92 Bertin - Cross 1 sewerage is Lot 8? 2 A. I believe so. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. And there are markers right on top 5 of the sewer line -- I'm sorry, on top of the gas 6 line to show the gas pipe location and we had 7 Transco go out there and give us depths of the 8 pipe at those points so we know how deep the pipe 9 is. And that's marked on that drawing 4.1 where 10 we had the profile we discussed the cross-section 11 of the sites, the sewer -- I mean the gas pipe is 12 also shown on that plan. And I'm just going to 13 check it so I have the right -- 14 THE CHAIRMAN: That's the bottom of 15 that diagram? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, 36-inch high 17 pressure gas main. 18 Q. Okay. And is it fair to say that 19 not every -- what is the width of the current 20 transmission easement on Lot 8? 21 A. Ten feet. 22 Q. And so therefore is it fair to say 23 that in that 10 foot area it is not shown on the 24 plans exactly where that gas main is located? 25 A. Oh -- Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 93 Bertin - Cross 1 Q. The trunk line. 2 A. Yes, it is. The markers, if it's 3 not shown on the plan that I have here, we do 4 show where the gas markers -- as a matter of 5 fact, it is. Looking at drawing C2.2. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. You see there's a gas marker here. 8 Q. Right. 9 A. There's a gas marker there, and 10 there's a couple -- well, one is missing, there's 11 a gas marker back here (indicating). 12 Q. Okay. And is that gas marker to 13 show the center of the 36-inch pipe? 14 A. Yes. Yes. 15 Q. And this transmission line, is this 16 a major trunk line or transmission line to New 17 York understand the Hudson River? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Now, did you do a site plan for Lot 20 8? Because there are some buildings shown on 21 your plans on Lot 8 but did you -- is there a 22 site plan that exists for Lot 8 someplace? 23 A. I'm sure the town does, but my 24 office surveyed the property so that's how we got 25 some of this information. Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 94 Bertin - Cross 1 Q. Okay. Is there distances from the 2 tanks to the property lines shown adjacent to 3 that northerly lot line? 4 A. No, we do not show any distances on 5 the survey. 6 Q. Now, do you know if there's any 7 particular weight that can travel over a gas 8 transmission line, do you know what the weight is 9 that would be a safe weight to place on same? 10 A. I'm going to say quickly -- it 11 depends on the depth of the pipe, but that gas 12 transmission line runs underneath River Road and 13 there is no restrictions. So I'll leave it at 14 that. 15 Q. Do you know -- back to the question, 16 do you know what the weight is that that 17 transmission line can take before there's a 18 problem or a potential rupture or crack or 19 something like that? 20 A. I can't say with certainty. 21 Q. Okay, that's not within your area of 22 expertise, the weight or safety issues with 23 respect to transmission line? 24 A. No, I can tell you for a sewer pipe 25 or a storm pipe, but not the gas pipe. Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 95 Bertin - Cross 1 Q. Okay. Now, you indicated one of 2 changes from this plan to the previous plan is 3 that there was a handwritten note on the bottom 4 right-hand side that says -- and I'll just read 5 it, "all tax lots are to be consolidated into one 6 tax lot"? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Is that a re-division or reverse 9 subdivision? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you know whether an application 12 was filed to the board for a re-division or 13 subdivision? 14 A. Yes. I made sure. I knew you were 15 going to ask the question. 16 MR. LAMB: Very good. It was in my 17 letter. I would request that the board provide 18 me with a copy of that subdivision or reverse 19 subdivision. 20 A. It's part of the application. 21 Q. North Bergen doesn't very a separate 22 application for reverse subdivision, subdivision? 23 MR. ALAMPI: I'll object, he 24 answered the question directly. 25 Q. Do you know -- are you aware whether Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 96 Bertin - Cross 1 public notice was given of the reverse 2 subdivision? 3 A. No. 4 Q. No. Now, in addition to that change 5 between this plan and the initial submission -- 6 and I know it was explained slightly, the minimum 7 driveway width -- and I was also curious about 8 that -- that's not really a variance situation so 9 you've crossed out that? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. That was a mistake on the bulk 12 schedule? 13 A. In the last minute when I was 14 checking the plans I misunderstood -- I mean 15 misinterpreted. 16 Q. No problem. 17 Is there a maximum? I saw the 18 section in the zoning ordinance for minimum. Is 19 there a maximum? Is there an amount by which you 20 cannot go beyond a certain width in the zoning 21 ordinance? 22 A. I do not recall. 23 Q. Now, Mr. Muhlstock had asked you 24 some questions and if we can go to the map with 25 the orange, I guess that's A-6 which is the Slope Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 97 Bertin - Cross 1 Analysis Plan. What is the slope of the property 2 by the orange area? 3 A. I don't have the exact slope, it's 4 just over 20 percent. That's the criteria we 5 use. 6 Q. Okay. Are the slopes shown on any 7 other place on the plans by number? 8 A. No, I don't believe we -- no, we did 9 not indicate slopes on the -- on that rear 10 portion by number. 11 Q. Okay. Do you know what portion of 12 the slopes are 30 percent or more? 13 A. No, I did not categorize it that 14 way. 15 Q. Now, is there -- I note that there's 16 a disturbance area. Is there any disturbance in 17 what's called the Guttenberg suspect sewer 18 easement for tax map? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And where is that located? 21 A. The -- that suspect sewer easement 22 runs along the back of the building. 23 Q. Okay. And what disturbance is 24 proposed in that area? 25 A. Really some minor grading and Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 98 Bertin - Cross 1 whatever it takes to build the building. No 2 heavy equipment but some minor grading and as far 3 as improvements all we plan on doing is putting a 4 swale there to capture surface water and direct 5 it around the building. 6 Q. So the swale is to be constructed by 7 you? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. In other words, there is no swale 10 there existing at the current time? 11 A. No. 12 Q. You're going to excavate that area, 13 dig whatever -- what's the depth of a swale? 14 A. A foot. 15 Q. You are going to make that 16 indentation of a foot and basically allow water 17 to drain -- 18 A. Right, redirect the water. 19 Q. Has the Township of Guttenberg given 20 you approval for that yet? 21 A. No, I don't believe that it's 22 required. 23 Q. Have you requested the Township of 24 Guttenberg approval? 25 A. No. Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 99 Bertin - Cross 1 Q. Now, I'm going to, I guess, refer 2 you to A-7 which is the -- and, again, we'll get 3 into the geotechnical or geological reports which 4 I haven't seen. 5 You have two colors -- two shades of 6 brown on this A-7 I guess, is that fair to say? 7 A. Yes, there are two shades. 8 Q. The darker shade and then there is a 9 lighter shade. Okay. Where is the what you call 10 the cliff in that -- on that brown? Where is the 11 cliff? 12 A. The cliff is noted by -- it says 13 "existing cliff face." 14 Q. Right. Could you draw in orange 15 where you say the cliff is? 16 A. Well, I'll circle the words or do 17 you want me to -- 18 Q. You can -- 19 A. In orange I'll make a line at the 20 face of the cliff and I'm also underlining the 21 words that says "existing cliff face." 22 Q. Thank you. Now, you indicated that 23 you did test and, again, we'll get later on into 24 the test but I think you said there was B1, 2 and 25 4 and B3 you didn't use? Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 100 Bertin - Cross 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. So generally when you took -- let's 3 take -- and you also have TP it's -- 4 A. Test pits that were excavated with a 5 tractor. 6 Q. Where did you hit the rock on those 7 areas? 8 A. Well, they're shown. We hit rocks 9 at various depths and depths are indicated on 10 these targets. So the rock -- well, it's on the 11 side of the building but at B4 the rock was at 12 elevation 6.5, okay. Behind the building the 13 closest the rock was at elevation 13 and there 14 was 19, 17, 15, various elevations. 15 Q. Okay. I want you to go to the first 16 floor elevation to the rear of the building, the 17 westerly side of the building. Can you draw in a 18 perpendicular direction from the first floor 19 elevation to the cliffs? 20 A. To the cliff? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. All right. You'd have to explain 23 that more, to the cliff that's exposed or to the 24 rock that might be underground? Because the 25 cliff I would take is what's exposed. Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 101 Bertin - Cross 1 Q. How you did calculate the rear yard 2 setback? 3 A. Well, we calculated from the back 4 line but also I think we have a dimension to that 5 cliff, excuse me, it's 130 feet to the closest 6 point of the exposed cliff face. He also put a 7 40 foot rear setback but I think for this zone 8 there is a dimension 40 feet to the cliff and so 9 it's 130 feet from the back of the building to 10 the cliff. 11 Q. Okay. You're aware that measuring 12 rear setback in the P2 Zone you measure it from 13 the first floor elevation? 14 A. Okay. I'll take your word for it. 15 Q. What I'd like you to do is draw the 16 130 feet as shown on your diagram on this 17 elevation with the orange, how you measured, you 18 got to the 130.52 feet. 19 (Witness complies.) 20 Q. So that's how you calculated -- and 21 that of course had to be done from the first 22 floor elevation not the ground level, correct, so 23 this really should be moved up one floor? 24 A. Yes, I'm sorry. Thank you. 25 Q. So is it fair to say that you took Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 102 Bertin - Cross 1 the perpendicular line of the existing cliff face 2 and went straight down and did the intersection? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Now, again I asked you previously if 5 you had reviewed the zoning tables. Are you 6 aware that there's a zoning table that 7 specifically says how you measure the rear 8 setback when there is a cliff? 9 A. Yes. 10 MR. LAMB: Okay. I guess we can 11 mark this, Mr. Chairman O-1 or G-1? 12 MR. MUHLSTOCK: Is that a portion of 13 the zoning code? 14 MR. LAMB: Yes. 15 MR. MUHLSTOCK: I don't think you 16 have to mark it, just refer to it on the record, 17 what page. 18 MR. LAMB: It doesn't have a page. 19 I have 20 copies. 20 MR. MUHLSTOCK: Is it one of the 21 diagrams? 22 MR. LAMB: It's one of the diagrams. 23 Figure 14. 24 MR. MUHLSTOCK: Okay. You don't 25 have to mark it, it's part of the zoning code. Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 103 Bertin - Cross 1 Q. I'm going to show you that. 2 MR. MUHLSTOCK: You can hand it out 3 to the board members. 4 MR. LAMB: I'm just trying to make 5 it easy. 6 Q. Now, Mr. Bertin, is it fair to say 7 that on this diagram the outer surface of the 8 cliff is used as the intersecting points to the 9 40 foot setback? 10 A. The outer surface of the cliff, yes. 11 Q. And is it also fair to say that you 12 did not use the outer surface of the cliff? 13 A. Well, I did because that's the only 14 outer surface of the cliff that's visible on the 15 property. 16 Q. Okay. And when you take the swale, 17 you dig out the swale, the other side of the 18 swale which is higher than the first floor -- 19 A. Okay, if we're going to take it from 20 the first floor back and we have to go back 40 21 feet -- 22 Q. Let's put it in orange. 23 (Witness complies.) 24 A. I just marked the 40 feet from the 25 first floor and you can see the rock is below Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 104 Bertin - Cross 1 that. The rock that we've encountered is at an 2 elevation below the first floor. 3 Q. Right. And that's the point. 4 You're using the subsurface rock as the cliff and 5 avoiding anything that's over the cliff, avoiding 6 the surface of the cliff? 7 MR. ALAMPI: Well, I'll object. I 8 let Mr. Lamb go on for a long time interchanging 9 the word slope for cliff. The witness is very 10 clear what he understood, again, his expertise as 11 the cliff. I think Mr. Lamb's point is made. 12 Let me note the objection of liberally using 13 cliff in the lieu of the word slope. 14 MR. MUHLSTOCK: It's 15 cross-examination, so -- 16 MR. LAMB: I'll go back to using 17 slope. 18 Q. So it's your position that the 19 setback is not calculated from that brown slope 20 but the area that is up here that you marked 21 existing cliff face? 22 A. It's my interpretation that it's 23 from the cliff not from dirt or from a slope, 24 it's from the cliff. And even if you measured 25 the subsurface rock as being cliff I think we -- Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 105 Bertin - Cross 1 it looks like we meet that as well. 2 Q. And -- 3 A. I think -- 4 Q. Where did you get your definition of 5 cliff? Is there a definition that you're aware 6 of? 7 A. Well, cliff, I would say it's a term 8 of art is exposed rock. Soil on a slope is not a 9 cliff. You know, cliff hanger, when you're 10 hanging off the Palisades, you know. I just 11 would mean exposed rock. 12 Q. So it's your position that along the 13 Palisades if it's not vertical, that actual hard 14 rock, if there is any dirt, rocks, whatever that 15 have been there for hundreds of years or two 16 years, that you don't measure it from the slope 17 or the face of it, whatever that is called? 18 A. Well, I would say -- well, it's not 19 sheer vertical. It does ungulate. We measured 20 it from the rock that's exposed, and as I 21 mentioned, we're not going to disturb not only 22 any exposed rock, it's highly unlikely that we're 23 going to disturb any subsurface rock. But this 24 is dirt, this is the talus slope or what was left 25 from the ancient Hudson River and it's not cliff. Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 106 Bertin - Cross 1 Q. So according to you then we could 2 just literally you could excavate this up to this 3 existing cliff face, you could go in with a 4 bulldozer and excavate that because it's not part 5 of the cliff? 6 MR. ALAMPI: I'll object, that's the 7 not the application. 8 THE WITNESS: That's what I was 9 going to say, it's not the application. 10 MR. MUHLSTOCK: It's 11 cross-examination so you could answer. Could you 12 do that given your definition of what cliff is? 13 THE WITNESS: We could definitely 14 put this building further back in the property. 15 MR. MUHLSTOCK: Okay. 16 Q. Now, do you know what the slope is 17 on this area between the edge of the first floor 18 and the end of the 40 foot marking? 19 A. No, I'd have to calculate it. I 20 don't have it handy. 21 Q. And you are aware that 30 percent is 22 a standard that's utilized in connection with the 23 calculation of the setback? 24 A. I don't recall that. I used the 20 25 percent because that's part of the county Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 107 Bertin - Cross 1 standard. 2 Q. Okay. Do you know what the North 3 Bergen standard is? 4 A. I don't recall. 5 Q. I'm going to refer you to page X1-8 6 which is 11-6 Section L.3C-2, can you read that, 7 please? 8 A. Okay, it says "In lots having a 9 slope of 30 percent or more the rear yard shall 10 be measured horizontally from the first habitable 11 floor to the cliff face." 12 Q. Okay. And it also says what, "see 13 figure 14"? 14 A. It says see figure 14. 15 Q. And figure 14 is referenced as to 16 how you measure the rear setback? 17 A. Well, the thing is it talks about a 18 property with 30 percent slope, but then it talks 19 about the cliff face. So 30 percent slope could 20 be soil, soil on a steep property, you want to 21 measure to the cliff face. So if it was a flat 22 piece of property, I guess we wouldn't have to 23 measure to the cliff face even though there may 24 have been cliff there. That's how I interpret 25 it. So if the slope of the property is less than Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 108 Bertin - Cross 1 30 percent it would not subject to measuring it 2 to the cliff face. 3 Q. But you don't know what any piece of 4 that rock, slope, cliff whatever you want to call 5 it in brown, what portion is even 30 percent? 6 A. I could calculate it but I don't 7 know it at this moment. 8 Q. So you prepared your calculation of 9 rear setback without calculating the 30 percent? 10 A. That's correct because I just 11 assumed, I took the safe course assuming it was 12 30 percent and I measured to the cliff. 13 Q. Now, is another way to do this is to 14 at least under that zoning ordinance definition 15 is to take what your approximate elevation is, 16 27.5 feet for the first floor because that's what 17 they use, and essentially move that westerly side 18 of the building 40 feet from the intersection of 19 27.5 feet elevation in that brown area? 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Now you lost me. 21 A. You're saying measure back 40 feet? 22 MR. BASELICE: You lost me there. 23 Q. Okay. If you were starting with the 24 brown area, you didn't have the building and you 25 knew that the building was going to be 27 and a Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 109 Bertin - Cross 1 half feet in elevation. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. The first floor, would it not be 4 normal to take the 27.5 foot elevation where it 5 intersects the brown and go back 40 feet to the 6 easterly side towards the Hudson River, would 7 that not give you 40 feet from that brown area so 8 you could sight the building? 9 A. That would but that's not my 10 interpretation. 11 Q. Okay. 12 MR. BASELICE: So that would be if 13 the cliff were right at that -- 14 THE WITNESS: Correct. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me ask a 16 question, Mr. Bertin. Again taken from the -- if 17 we go horizontally from the first habitable 18 floor, do we know where the cliff face is? 19 THE WITNESS: Well, it's -- the 20 subsurface rock, I know where the cliff face is. 21 The cliff face is -- 22 MR. BASELICE: No, very interesting. 23 How -- that goes to my question originally which 24 was in your orange section where does the cliff 25 start if you didn't take borings at the front? Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 110 Bertin - Cross 1 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, I know 2 where the rock is behind the building and we 3 haven't intersected the rock. Where we did take 4 borings, they go back almost 40 feet behind the 5 building and we haven't hit rock yet. So if you 6 want me to continue back up the hill and dig 7 until we find rock at that elevation. 8 MR. BASELICE: We were using rock, 9 Mr. Lamb was using slope and I'm using cliff. 10 THE WITNESS: Cliff and rock are 11 similar. That's the cliff. 12 MR. BASELICE: That's the cliff but 13 if the cliff comes down as the bed of the old 14 Hudson, does that cliff, not the cliff face as 15 you're defining it as being straight, but doesn't 16 the cliff jut out at the bottom? If you take a 17 boring and hit rock, do you define the rock as 18 being part of the cliff? 19 THE WITNESS: I would say it's part 20 of the Palisades, whether it's on the -- 21 MR. BASELICE: I didn't say 22 Palisades, part of the cliff. 23 THE WITNESS: No, no. Well, yes, at 24 some point. You know, if it's back here, it's 25 not on the cliff. The cliff is the face but yes Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 111 Bertin - Cross 1 and I didn't -- we didn't hit rocks and we went 2 back and you could see the top of the rock behind 3 the building is still below the first habitable 4 floor. 5 MR. SOMICK: So in your expertise 6 you feel that the first floor you have ample room 7 to say that there is sufficient before the rock 8 starts going up and meets the cliff? 9 THE WITNESS: Rock, cliff, before 10 that hard substance called diabase, yes. 11 MR. BASELICE: Diabase, yes, now we 12 agree, diabase. 13 Q. Now, Mr. Bertin, C-2.1 -- 14 A. It's not here. 2 is here. 15 Q. You don't have C-2 -- 16 A. No, it's a demolition -- 17 Q. Do you have C-2.1? 18 MR. LAMB: Do you want to mark this 19 for identification as an A? It's your site plan. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me ask this, 21 Mr. Lamb, we're now almost 20 minutes beyond our 22 deadline. 23 MR. LAMB: How much? 24 MR. MUHLSTOCK: It's 9:20. 25 THE WITNESS: He just got warmed up. Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 112 Bertin - Cross 1 MR. LAMB: I'm not -- 2 THE CHAIRMAN: You are not even -- 3 MR. LAMB: I'm not -- 4 MR. ALAMPI: He didn't even scratch 5 the surface. 6 THE WITNESS: Of the slope or the 7 cliff? 8 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Let's do 9 this. I do -- 10 MR. ALAMPI: He's going to come in 11 with a backhoe next week. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me suggest that 13 you continue your cross at the next hearing. 14 What I want to do is I want to allow three people 15 and three people only to ask questions and only 16 questions, please no statements, just ask 17 questions. There's one, two. Anybody else? 18 Three. Okay. 19 The board members have just reminded 20 me, if Mr. Lamb is representing you, then please 21 don't get up and duplicate that representation, 22 i.e., if you live in the Galaxy, please don't 23 stand up. 24 Are you in the Galaxy? 25 MR. ROBEN: I live in the Galaxy but Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 113 Roben 1 as I understand it Mr. Lamb is representing the 2 Galaxy board, the Galaxy board does not represent 3 me. I've opposed the Galaxy board at various 4 times. I'm just -- I just happen to live. 5 MR. SOMICK: Do you pay a 6 maintenance fee? 7 MR. ROBEN: I live in the Galaxy but 8 the Galaxy board does not represent me. I think 9 that's been ruled previously by the board, 10 they're separate. It's the board of adjustment. 11 JEROME ROBEN, residing at 7004 Boulevard East, 12 Guttenberg, New Jersey, having been duly sworn by 13 the Notary Public, was examined and testified as 14 follows: 15 THE WITNESS: Okay, Mr. Bertin, 16 looking at this, I don't know what number 17 designation this, A-5? And on A-5 I notice 18 there's a lot of green on there, you know, it 19 looks very green but in fact this -- the building 20 itself has I guess you're saying a little bit of 21 some kind of scrubby grass or something that's 22 going to be planted on the roof. I've seen that 23 on some other buildings and a lot of times it 24 tends to look just kind of yellow like weeds are 25 growing up there. It's not really a true, you Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 114 Roben 1 know, green space in the sense that you know most 2 people when they say they want a green space, 3 that's not really what they're you talking about. 4 I mean, it might be slightly more attractive than 5 tar paper or something but it's not green space. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Your question 7 is, is it green? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, that would be the 9 first question. 10 MR. BERTIN: Yes, it's considered 11 green roof. It's considered a landscaped roof. 12 MS. HARTMANN: Aren't you also using 13 a variety of sedum which have a varying color 14 palette both in the summer and in the fall so it 15 isn't just grasses that are yellow? 16 MR. BERTIN: Correct, we have on the 17 plan, we specify the different sedums, that's how 18 we show it in patterns there because we'll plant 19 them in waves so they look somewhat natural. 20 THE WITNESS: Okay. I've noticed 21 that the cliff coming down in a steep slope, that 22 steep slope comes down across here roughly to 23 about 40 feet into the area where the building 24 currently is? 25 MR. BERTIN: Yes, it goes either at Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 115 Roben 1 the back of the building on the north side or 2 about 40 feet into the building on the south 3 side. 4 THE WITNESS: So really about half 5 of this property would be classified as steep 6 slopes as it exists right now; is that correct? 7 MR. BERTIN: Approximately half, 8 yes. 9 THE WITNESS: Of the level portion 10 of the property when this building is completed, 11 you talked about the impervious surfaces. On the 12 level portion of this property what percentage of 13 level portion will be impervious? Roughly that 14 means from this point downward how much -- 15 MR. BERTIN: Obviously if you look 16 at the building, if you consider the roof 17 impervious even though it's got plantings on top, 18 it would be a substantial portion of the front 19 part of the property, yes. I don't have the 20 exact number but you could see the building 21 occupies most of the front. 22 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm asking you 23 not about the whole property. 24 MR. BERTIN: You asked about the 25 half and I don't have a calculation, you could Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 116 Roben 1 see it's a substantial amount. 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. Right. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, we got three 4 questions in. 5 THE WITNESS: Well, if I could wrap 6 this up, the area in fact which is not impervious 7 is this little strip along the side here if I 8 understand correctly, and this little strip which 9 is as narrow as about 10 feet at this point, so 10 this is the only area that's not steep slope that 11 is permeable ground on this property. 12 MR. BERTIN: Correct, a little bit 13 in the front, yes. 14 THE WITNESS: Well, this isn't your 15 property, is it? 16 MR. BERTIN: No, but there's 17 landscaping along the front, but yes. 18 THE WITNESS: On the sides here but 19 not in the front. 20 MR. BERTIN: There's also 21 landscaping in the front between the building and 22 the property line. 23 THE WITNESS: Well, one of the 24 reasons it's an issue is you have a -- 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I mean, you Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 117 Roben 1 got a bunch in but I've got two other people that 2 have to talk and we're out of time. 3 THE WITNESS: If the board was 4 asking these questions, I wouldn't have to. 5 These are some important questions. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: And you're going to 7 get nasty on top of it? 8 THE WITNESS: I'm not trying to be 9 nasty but -- 10 MR. MUHLSTOCK: The point you're 11 trying to -- 12 THE WITNESS: I was leading to a 13 question -- 14 MR. MUHLSTOCK: Why don't you state 15 your point so the board understands. I think we 16 know where you're going, but just state your 17 point. 18 THE WITNESS: I was in the middle of 19 it. 20 A VOICE: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman -- 21 MR. SHAW: Let him speak. 22 A VOICE: I'm a part of the Galaxy 23 board, I wouldn't ask questions. Could I defer 24 my questions? 25 MR. MUHLSTOCK: Just state your Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 118 Marjan 1 point so it's clear. We think we know where 2 you're going, so just state it. 3 THE WITNESS: When you have a steep 4 cliff like that, counting the steep cliff as 5 permeable area in fact water is just going to be 6 flooding down that cliff so really the rest of 7 the property is the area that should be counted 8 as permeable or nonpermeable and the property is 9 really virtually entirely paved except for the 10 cliff itself. So at some future point I would 11 like to question the status of Palisades that 12 you've made, and I guess if I've been given some 13 of the time of another witness, could I ask some 14 question about the Palisades as designated? 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me ask that you 16 hold that for the next session. 17 THE WITNESS: Because there was a 18 waiving. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, you had a 20 question? 21 BIJAN MARJAN, residing at 8100 River Road, North 22 Bergen, New Jersey, having been duly sworn by the 23 Notary Public, was examined and testified as 24 follows: 25 THE WITNESS: Just two questions on Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 119 Marjan 1 traffic related. In the either diagram there is 2 some sort of a backup in the first parking spots 3 at the entrance, what type of analysis have you 4 performed on what the impact is -- 5 THE CHAIRMAN: We haven't really 6 gotten to the traffic yet. 7 THE WITNESS: Because it was part of 8 the original set of documents. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: You're going to 10 provide further testimony on traffic? 11 MR. ALAMPI: We're recalling the 12 witness, we did produce the reports but since 13 there was a little confusion on the circulation 14 and distribution, I deferred the questioning 15 otherwise I wouldn't have yielded the floor for 16 another two hours. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's try and hold 18 that until they actually testify on traffic. 19 THE WITNESS: So can I pass my time 20 to someone else? 21 THE CHAIRMAN: I'll tell you, Dave 22 Kronick, you were the fourth one with your hand 23 up before. 24 MR. KRONICK: Thank you. Am I 25 limited to just two questions? Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 120 Rosen 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, please Dave. 2 MR. KRONICK: And at the next 3 session can I have more -- 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 5 MR. KRONICK: I'll waive my -- 6 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. And 7 that's it, folks. 8 STEVEN ROSEN, residing at 7004 Boulevard East, 9 Guttenberg, New Jersey, having been duly sworn by 10 the Notary Public, was examined and testified as 11 follows: 12 THE WITNESS: I have two questions. 13 First, I know that that land because I play 14 tennis there and picnicked there it's said to be 15 polluted and some black plastic was put over the 16 land and dirt was put over it and then grass 17 grown in order to cap that pollution but not 18 remediate it. Are you going to remediate that 19 pollution in that ground and how? 20 MR. BERTIN: I'm not the person who 21 can answer that question. Someone else can 22 answer the question but not me. 23 THE WITNESS: Okay. 24 MR. BERTIN: Sorry. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Are we going to Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 121 Rosen 1 provide testimony? 2 MR. ALAMPI: Not at all, that's a 3 DEP issue. It's something else. 4 MR. MUHLSTOCK: The answer is it is 5 really outside the jurisdiction of this board. 6 The DEP has jurisdiction of questions such as 7 that, not the board. 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. 9 MR. MUHLSTOCK: They have to satisfy 10 the state. 11 THE WITNESS: The open air parking 12 spaces that you referred to, if I pull in there 13 and park is that allowed because I'm not living 14 the building or I'm visiting someone in the 15 building? 16 MR. BERTIN: You can park if you're 17 a visitor. If you have no business here, no, 18 you're not technically supposed to park here, and 19 we have some parking spaces identified as visitor 20 parking. 21 THE WITNESS: But you don't have a 22 concierge or anyone to enforce that? 23 MR. BERTIN: Not that I'm aware of. 24 But I'm not involved in that part. 25 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you. Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 122 Rosen 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Did you 2 want another special? 3 MR. ALAMPI: I think, Chairman, 4 Mr. Lamb brought to our attention we were 5 shooting for that August special meeting but I 6 think he had vacation unless John you canceled 7 your vacation. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: There's nothing in 9 August. 10 (Discussion off the record.) 11 MR. ALAMPI: Mr. Chairman, I have an 12 application in another community that was 13 readjusted and I believe that it was for the 14 fifth Thursday, the 30th. So I believe I'm 15 available Wednesday, the 29th. The problem is if 16 I wake up tomorrow morning and I have an epiphany 17 these notices are $2500 dollars a shot. So we'll 18 stay with the 29th and if that doesn't work, it 19 will be on a date unless of course we're 20 adjourning this or adjusting it for Mr. Lamb's 21 vacation schedule and he's not available. I'm 22 the applicant, he's not. But, John, if I 23 determine tonight the 29th looks like a good 24 date, are we going to get into a re-notice issue? 25 I mean, it's a simple question. If it is, then I Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 123 Rosen 1 know how to deal with it. 2 MR. LAMB: I don't want to confuse 3 anybody. Legally it's more if we tell 4 everybody -- 5 THE CHAIRMAN: If I announce it 6 tonight and we later change it, you have to 7 re-notice. 8 MR. ALAMPI: No, we're not. I'm 9 going to show up and ask for adjournment that 10 night and be here. That's my point. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: That you can do. 12 MR. ALAMPI: There are meetings 13 dates and we are adjusting. It's not the board, 14 it's not Mr. Lamb, but he had no vacation. He 15 certainly works even harder than I do so he's 16 entitled, I'm entitled, you're entitled and the 17 pubic is. I'm trying to say I believe the 29th 18 works. It may not, I'll be here just to get an 19 adjournment not to re-notice. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Which you can do. 21 MR. ALAMPI: Thank you. 22 MR. LAMB: Mr. Chairman, just for 23 the record, I assume that there's an extension of 24 time for which the board can make a decision? 25 MR. ALAMPI: Oh, I wasn't Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 124 Jamieson 1 contemplating that. Yes, Chairman. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. This young 3 lady had to ask question. 4 A VOICE: I did have a question we 5 kind of dismissed DEP thing. 6 JODY JAMIESON, residing at 8600 Boulevard East, 7 North Bergen, New Jersey, having been duly sworn 8 by the Notary Public, was examined and testified 9 as follows: 10 THE WITNESS: I'm not understanding 11 why you dismissed the whole issue of the 12 contaminated soil and that it wasn't within your 13 jurisdiction. I mean, this is North Bergen and 14 if you're going to allow this project to go 15 through, this is property that's -- 16 THE CHAIRMAN: What our attorney was 17 saying is that in fact they need to get DEP 18 clearance anyway no matter what this board does. 19 So we can say yes and DEP says no and it's 20 squashed. 21 THE WITNESS: Has the DEP been 22 notified about this application? 23 MR. ALAMPI: Well, through the sewer 24 connection process, yes, but not because certain 25 people say there's a condition. But we'll Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 125 1 address that in due course. 2 MR. LAMB: I think we'll wait until 3 we address, with all due respect in the event 4 that the board sees fit to, on conditions, one of 5 the conditions that the DEP -- that it is safe to 6 have residential housing on the subject property. 7 MR. ALAMPI: You think we could get 8 financing if we didn't have that? We all know 9 that. There is no mystery here. 10 MR. LAMB: Also, Mr. Chairman, the 11 question was asked to me, we're confirming that 12 since some of the public wanted to cross-examine 13 or ask questions of the architect, that the 14 architect is also coming back. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, he will. 16 Correct? 17 MR. ALAMPI: So ordered, so it will 18 be. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, let me make the 20 announcement. Folks, what we've just agreed on 21 is that the next meeting on this project will be 22 Wednesday, September 29th at 7 p.m. in these 23 chambers. You will not receive new notice. This 24 your notice that I'm giving you right now. So 25 please make a note and of course should you so Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 126 1 wish, please come and join us that night. You 2 will have further opportunity for public 3 questions that night as well. 4 With that, the Chair will entertain a 5 motion for adjournment. 6 MR. SOMICK: I make a motion to 7 adjourn. 8 MR. FERNANDEZ: Second. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Moved and seconded. 10 All in favor? 11 (Chorus of ayes.) 12 THE CHAIRMAN: The meeting is 13 adjourned. 14 (Time noted: 9:37 p.m.) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 127 1 INDEX 2 WITNESS PAGE 3 4 JILL HARTMANN 7 5 JAMES FORDHAM 7 6 JOSE CARBALLO Direct - Mr. Alampi 7 7 Cross -Mr. Lamb 14 8 CALISTO BERTIN Voir Dire- Mr. Alampi 16 9 Direct- Mr. Alampi 18 Cross- Mr. Lamb 74 10 JEROME ROBEN 113 11 BIJAN MARJAN 118 12 STEVEN ROSEN 120 13 JODY JAMIESON 124 14 EXHIBITS 15 APPLICANT'S PAGE 16 Exhibit 2, drawings A-0, A-1, A-2 and 8 17 A-3 with the revision date 7/1/10 18 Exhibit 3, plans with a revision date 21 19 of July 6, 2010, 14 pages 20 Exhibit 4, Interior Parking Plan dated 42 8/29/09 21 Exhibit 5, Landscape Plan with a 47 22 revision date of 7/13/10 23 Exhibit 6, Slope Analysis Plan 59 24 Exhibit 7, drawing C4.1, cross 63 sections and gas main profile plan 25 Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR 128 1 CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF NEW JERSEY ) :ss 3 COUNTY OF HUDSON ) 4 I, CELESTE A. GALBO, a Certified 5 Court Reporter and Notary Public within and for 6 the State of New Jersey do hereby certify: 7 That all the witnesses whose 8 testimony is hereinbefore set forth, was duly 9 sworn by me and that such is a true record of the 10 testimony given by such witnesses. 11 I further certify that I am not 12 related to any of the parties to this action by 13 blood or marriage and that I am in no way 14 interested in the outcome of this matter. 15 In witness whereof, I have hereunto 16 set my hand this 12th day of August 2010. 17 18 19 CELESTE A. GALBO 20 License No. 30X100098800 21 22 23 24 25 Celeste A. Galbo, CCR, RMR